Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2014 August 27

= August 27 =

Is it true that the Japanese can't innovate?
I heard this at least 3 times in my life, and I'm skeptical. Is this true? 69.121.131.137 (talk) 00:03, 27 August 2014 (UTC)


 * How many counterexamples would you need? --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  00:17, 27 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Higher education in Japan doesn't mention it, but the education system there works against creativity, as noted in this article and many others. There's also the cultural barrier, reflected in the saying "the nail that sticks out gets hammered", i.e. don't rock the boat. So basically it's not impossible for Japanese to innovate, it's just a lot more difficult. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:56, 27 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Um... are we talking about same Japan that brought us the Transistor radio in the 60s, Atari in the 70s, the Walkman in the 80s... etc... And someone says they can't innovate?  Get real. Blueboar (talk) 01:12, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, if you are going to pick examples, you could at least pick better ones. The transistor radio was invented by Texas Instruments and further developed by Raytheon, both American companies.  The Atari corporation was founded by Nolan Bushnell, and American, and was based out of California.  The first portable cassette tape players were released by Philips, the Dutch company that invented the audio cassette tape.  Yes, the Japanese invent and innovate plenty.  But if you are going to prove that they do by giving examples, at least choose examples that are actually, you know, Japanese... -- Jayron  32  02:19, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * You're wrong about the personal stereo, which was certainly a Japanese innovation. --Viennese Waltz 17:40, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Really? Because the article you linked states "The first personal stereo was the Stereobelt invented and patented by West German-Brazilian inventor Andreas Pavel in 1977."  So... -- Jayron  32  00:56, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The mere fact that it's perceived that these are Japanese innovations ought to tell us something. Meanwhile, from somewhere in the background I'm hearing Peter Sellers saying how the Japanese "make such bloody good cameras". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:54, 27 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Almost everyone who won the IWGP Junior Heavyweight Championship lent around ten moves to the pro wrestling repertoire. Without Antonio Inoki's vision for the future, viewers likely would have grown bored with the headlocks and legdrops in Vince McMahon's. Maybe a bit corny, but enormous business. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:33, 27 August 2014 (UTC)


 * See Category:Japanese inventions.—Wavelength (talk) 02:31, 27 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Some of us can recall when "Made in Japan" meant a product was cheap junk, destined to disappoint the purchaser. See, . It was a common punchline in a cartoon that something would break, and the label "made in Japan" would be shown. Later, the quality of consumer electronics and cameras improved. Consumer testing magazines showed a fawning adulation of cars and electronic products made in Japan. Edison (talk) 03:37, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * To be fair, the issue is with innovation, not quality. ScienceApe (talk) 04:14, 27 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Same thing happened with the wrestling. All Japan long typically meant crap like Giant Baba, Mitsuo Momota or worse. Even their younger, better stars had a certain "boring" style. Then the 1994 Super-J Cup happened, and fawnamania ran wild in North America among the "smart" fans. Within a year or so, the flashy style was mainstream. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:20, 27 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Without references (and some expert may add those): I read recently in a reliable source that Japanese (but also Chinese) culture shows a far greater respect for “elders” than does US / European society.  This shows in politics but also in commerce.  As a result younger people who may think laterally and may be more innovative are frustrated and demotivated as the older generation often avoids the risks of novel ideas.  Maybe regulars who are familiar with the culture (Oda Mari, Käge Torä, et al) could comment?  --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 04:49, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm no expert on Japanese culture in general, but I can add this source showing that elder respect carries through to the Japanese wrestling dojos and lockerrooms more than in "the West". Also see "young boy". InedibleHulk (talk) 05:03, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

I think that the Japanese innovate all the time, but generally in directions influenced by their culture and institutions (as is the case for all but a very few people). It's true that in some situations Japanese creativity seems to work in a more structured way than in some other cultures. For example, there was an informal division of labor between U.S. and Japanese semiconductor companies for a number of years, such that the Japanese companies concentrated on designing highly-repetitive memory chips so that they would be as small as possible and consume as little power as possible, while U.S. companies designed the more diversely-challenging microprocessor chips (not sure whether this is still true). Also, some classic Japanese video games (such as Space Invaders) are very rigidly structured, while western designed games from the same era (such as Asteroids (video game)) tended to be more free-form... AnonMoos (talk) 06:02, 27 August 2014 (UTC)


 * From Jun Akiyama, I got "inobeshun". That led me to Ikujiro Nonaka and this book he co-wrote. It seems pretty thorough. Apparently knowing stuff is the "new new product", not making it. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:23, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Has anyone mentioned the atopmic bomb? 99.106.120.159 (talk) 07:57, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * How is that an example of Japanese innovation? --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  08:28, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Unless it's been confused with the Orange Crush Bomb, it isn't. Common mistake. The telltale difference is that angry people in Internet forums are allowed to discuss homemade formulae for the latter restricted weapon. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:13, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * No mention yet of anime and manga. Staecker (talk) 12:17, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

One thing you have to be wary of is confirmation bias - that is, if you go into things thinking "the Japanese aren't innovative", it will be very difficult to come up with counter examples, because what counts as "innovative" can be somewhat ill-defined. For example, you may run across examples where Japanese people/firms come up with more efficient ways of running a manufacturing plant, or where they come up with an altered design on an existing object that improves its function. In those cases, your pre-existing doubt against Japanese innovation may cause you to look for reasons it isn't innovation, so you'll say things like "well, that's not really innovation, because it was an existing process/product, and they just refined it". In contrast, if a group of people to whom you do attribute the talent of being innovative (e.g. Americans) come up with a more efficient way of running a manufacturing plant (for example, Henry Ford and the assembly line) or come up with an altered design that improves the function of an existing object (e.g. Thomas Edison and the lightbulb), you may not look as hard for excuses as to why their contributions shouldn't count as "innovation", and accept their innovations at face value. Similarly you can't trust examples because of how well known they are, because the people propagating the examples may also be suffering from confirmation bias. Confirmatory examples are passed on unquestioned, and counter-examples aren't, because they "don't really count". -- 160.129.138.186 (talk) 17:37, 27 August 2014 (UTC)


 * It takes some innovative ability to win a Nobel Prize: List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_country. --Wikimedes (talk) 17:48, 27 August 2014 (UTC)


 * The Game & Watch series was innovative. CS Miller (talk) 18:22, 27 August 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the numerous innovations employed in toilets in Japan. Marco polo (talk) 18:27, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

List of innovations — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.177.218.59 (talk) 00:51, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) Instant Ramen Noodles (turning consumers into a pillar of Sodium)
 * 2) Electric Rice Cooker
 * 3) Walkman
 * 4) Heated Toilet Seats
 * 5) Hamburger Vending Machine (cooks the burger on the spot)
 * 6) Capsule Hotel (your own personal sleeping coffin)
 * 7) Remote Opening Taxi Doors
 * 8) VHS, BETAMAX and U-matic
 * 9) wing-graph type of pantograph (Bullet Train)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.177.218.59 (talk) 01:07, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * For that matter, "bullet trains" themselves: the concept of building new railway lines engineered for substantially higher speeds than existing lines and where only trains capable of those speeds are allowed. Quite a few countries have built railways like that now, but Japan did it first. --70.49.168.18 (talk) 08:53, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

202.177.218.59 (talk) 00:50, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * It would be wrong of me to quit it with the wrestling before singling out the general notion of Tiger Mask. But now that I'm done, I'll also mention Godzilla. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:19, 28 August 2014 (UTC)


 * The term "innovate" may have once meant creating something totally new, but it has meant "make changes in something established" for at least 400 years. Every invention is based on something that preceded it. The premise of Connections (TV series). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:22, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Damn good series. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:04, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Now marked resolved, above. --Dweller (talk) 09:28, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Shakespeare on audiobook
Does anyone know of a good set/series of the Shakespeare plays (and poems) on  audiotape audiobook? I can't seem to find a good "series", as is typical with the printed paperback books (e.g., the Arden series, the Pelican series, the Folger series, etc.). And, if possible, I prefer the unabridged texts. The ones that I have found are recited by people that are not professional actors; and their reading is quite awful. And, of course, you need a good actor to read the script/dialogue correctly. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 18:01, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * A websearch for "Shakespeare audiobooks" came up with a few useful hits. Naxos seem to provide good quality CDs, you'll need to copy them to tape. The BBC is likely to have them as a radioplay or their book at bedtime series, but the latter is abridged. CS Miller (talk) 18:18, 27 August 2014 (UTC)


 * In my post, I did not mean to imply that I was looking for a "tape" per se. Having a CD is fine.  In fact, I don't want a "tape", as I would have nowhere to play it.  I guess I thought that CD's are generically referred to as "audiotapes" in genre.  Thanks.   Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:11, 27 August 2014 (UTC)


 * The Complete Arkangel Shakespeare. --Viennese Waltz 18:22, 27 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Wow! $500!  Yikes.  That does seem nice.  I probably wasn't clear in my post.  I was intending to buy the series, one play at a time (as I read each play).  Not all 38 together.  The same as what I do with the printed paperback books.   Thanks.   Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:13, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * You can buy the Arkangel CDs separately. --Viennese Waltz 06:47, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * When I was buying them for a library, we definitely preferred the Arkangel ones if available. Not cheap, but much better than the competition. Andrew Gray (talk) 22:01, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Each play by Shakespeare that I put in the Search box at www.youtube.com obtains finds videos of full-length performances and films. No guarantee of quality or authenticity, of course, but listening is cheap. 84.209.89.214 (talk) 19:22, 27 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Yep. I did the YouTube route.  The readings are simply awful.  They are not professional actors.  In fact, I think they are simply unpaid volunteers.  The read the correct words, but they read it like a robot or a monotone; you can tell that they are simply reading words from a piece of paper.  They are not "acting out" (voice acting) the dialogue.  They are very bad.  And the bad reading, needless to say, detracts from the experience of hearing the play.  The beauty of the play, of course, is in its language (not only written, but even more so, spoken).  And they really butcher it.   Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:15, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I believe you may have been unlucky in choosing videos in YouTube. There are hundreds of Shakespearean performances there, some by unquestionably professional actors. 84.209.89.214 (talk) 18:20, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Just my luck, I got a cheap version of Romeo and Juliet, being read by Gilbert Gottfried and Fran Drescher. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:19, 28 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Really? No, I have not found a decent one yet.  Are you talking about films?  Or just audiobook readings?  I am referring to the second, not the first.  (Yes, I have seen some decent professionally acted films on YouTube.  But, that's not what I am looking for.  I am seeking an audiobook performance / dramatic reading.)  Thanks.   Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 18:34, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I was indeed thinking of full length films that can be found on YouTube and confess that I don't see why a good one should not be satisfactory in audio only. Sir John Gielgud or Richard Burton offer some speeches here that may please. I find also an AudioBook of Hamlet on YouTube. 84.209.89.214 (talk) 22:04, 28 August 2014 (UTC)


 * I suspect that "big name" Shakespearean actors (Olivier, Gielgud, Jacobi, Mirren, Dench, etc.) are willing to do film work, but not audiobooks.  Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 00:45, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Interesting list but here's the rub, methinks Olivier and Gielgud do but sleep now, having shuffled off this mortal coil in 1989 and 2000 respectively. Whereas a Wikipedia article can suggest many rôles for the Women in Shakespeare's works. 84.209.89.214 (talk) 11:19, 29 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes, true, Olivier and Gielgud have passed away. So, in my last post, it was implied that I was also saying that the big names "are [or were] willing to do film work, but not audiobooks".  Thanks.   Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:24, 29 August 2014 (UTC)


 * BBC has some in its shop - actual productions for radio, with your genuine talent, e.g 4 tragedies for £39.99 on 8 CDs here Shakespeare The Essential Tragedies Volume 1. DuncanHill (talk) 16:59, 29 August 2014 (UTC)


 * There are 160 entries for Shakespeare on LibriVox. I don't know if this constitutes a complete series, but it's a lot. As usual on LibriVox, quality is hit-or-miss, but there are good readings, and overall quality improves over time. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:52, 27 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Ah, thanks. I never heard of LibriVox.   Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 21:46, 27 August 2014 (UTC)


 * And now for something not quite so completely serious ... :) --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:29, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, all. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 18:04, 30 August 2014 (UTC)