Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2014 December 24

= December 24 =

Oil price drop - Saudi Arabia & USA
I'm trying to understand the background to the sinking oil prices and Saudi Arabia's insistence on continuing to produce at the same level as before, even if reaching very low levels such as $40. So I read this week that there is a happy willingness through this to let Saudi Arabia's antagonists (Iran) or the USA's (Venezuela, Russia, Iran) suffer, which seems to make sense considering the long and good relationship between the USA and the Saudis. But the Süddeutsche is today reporting that Saudi Arabia is also disappointed with current USA-Saudi relations and is aware that this price drop will adversely affect the USA (which seems then a contradiction). So I'm asking here about, what is the background to the Saudi production & pricing tactic and how will it negatively affect other countries (or not)? ZygonLieutenant (talk) 00:42, 24 December 2014 (UTC)


 * NPR has reported on this from time to time. It seems that OPEC has taken a page from John D. Rockefeller's business plan: They are trying to compel other oil-producing nations to cut production as being not-cost-effective, and hence expand OPEC's market. One example: ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:35, 24 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Regarding lower gas prices hurting the US: In the short run, the opposite is true, since it helps consumers, who then have more money to spend on other things. It could hurt American oil companies, but probably not much, as they sell more gasoline if the price is lower.  But, in the long term, it could indeed be bad for the US, if alternative energy production, hybrid and electric cars, and other energy conservation efforts are abandoned, leaving the US in a desperate condition when prices inevitably rebound past where they were.  One long term benefit, though, might be if the pipeline they are trying to build through the main water aquifer in the US gets cancelled as not financially viable.  Otherwise, 30 years from now, when the pipeline gets old and starts leaking all over, the aquifer would be ruined and farming in the plains states would no longer be possible.  But that aside, the smart US reaction would be to slap taxes on gasoline to keep the price where it was, and use those taxes to invest in alternative energy, but politicians will never go for that.


 * Regarding US-Saudi relations: The Saudis were quite angry that the US didn't actively fight the (Iran friendly) Syrian government, so started covertly funding "freedom fighters" like ISIL, but I think by now they realize they've created a monster, and are a bit more willing to accept US leadership again rather than go off on their own, but I don't know that this would affect their OPEC stance. StuRat (talk) 05:10, 24 December 2014 (UTC)


 * My understanding is that this is primarily a business decision, motivated mainly by a desire to maintain or recover market share. Saudi Arabia's market share and its role as marginal oil producer able to set the oil price have been undermined by the expansion of production in the United States through fracking (as well as tar sand extraction in Canada). The Saudis' primary goal is to allow prices to fall to a point at which expensive extraction methods (such as fracking and tar sand processing) become uneconomical and have to be abandoned.  At which point, production will fall, the Saudis will regain market share, and prices will rise. A secondary goal may be to allow lower prices to stimulate the global economy and increase demand for oil. In the short term, this policy will hurt Russia, Iran, and Venezuela, whose economies depend on high oil prices.  In the medium term, conventional oil exporters (including those three countries) will benefit, and the United States and other oil-importing countries will suffer, when production falls amid steady or rising demand and prices rise again.  In the long term, it won't matter, as high prices will restart fracking and tar sand extraction in North America, albeit perhaps at lower volumes than before, so as to keep prices well above production costs and not to restart this cycle. The Saudis are just looking out for their own interests.  They don't care much what happens to other countries as this cycle plays out. Marco polo (talk) 15:06, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Your summary is excellent. --Ghirla-трёп- 15:48, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Chinese Buddhism history question
The article on Cintamani states one of the Chinese terms for the object is ruyizhu (如意珠). Does anyone know of a source that mentions the earliest usage of the term? Thanks. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 01:59, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
 * If it helps, Giles has ruyi mani as the year title for 692. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 22:33, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Where can I find the Virgin Mary in a contemporary Catholic Church?
I once checked out a picture dictionary, which displayed cross-sections of some religious buildings - including a traditional, gothic-style church building. I went to a local Catholic church, and the layout was too contemporary and didn't match the illustration. I also couldn't find a statue of the Virgin Mary, and the people there seemed to walk in, sit in the big room with traditional pews, and walk out. I didn't see any statues of saints or paintings of saints, let alone an image of the Virgin Mary. I suspect the picture dictionary portrayed an outdated view of what a church is supposed to look like. Or perhaps, churches keep images of saints in safe places? 71.79.234.132 (talk) 04:18, 24 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I am confused by your question. In any – and every – Roman Catholic church that I have ever been in, there are plenty of images/statues of the Virgin Mary.  What exactly are you looking for?  An image/painting?  A statue?  If the very first church that you visited had none of these, I am quite sure that the second or third that you visit will.    Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:13, 24 December 2014 (UTC)


 * But it seems that Catholics, in my one-day experience, ignore icons. No kissing, no praying. 71.79.234.132 (talk) 05:53, 24 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Why would you expect to understand even the minor points of a major world religion in just one visit to a church one day? Like Joseph, I don't think I've seen any Catholic church that didn't have a statue of Mary.  I suppose that there might be one somewhere but even then I would expect a painting or some other portrayal.  And Catholics do pray to Mary.  After all, she has a number of feast days.  Many Catholic saints have feast days which would satisfy your desire for praying.  Dismas |(talk) 06:19, 24 December 2014 (UTC)


 * You would need to sit through a service, or listen to someone praying using the Rosary, to hear the prayer to St Mary, called a "Hail Mary" or an "Ave Maria". It's not that they go to her statue and pray in front of her. --TammyMoet (talk) 12:44, 24 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, they may well pray to Mary in front of a statue of her, but rarely out loud. It's very common to have stands of candles, and even kneelers, in front of or near statues, to provide a focus for prayer, but it would be unusual for someone to be demonstrative about it in public. 86.156.148.98 (talk) 12:55, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
 * How does Catholicism justify what appears to be a violation of the Ten Commandments, i.e. "idol worship"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:31, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
 * See Catholic_doctrine_regarding_the_Ten_Commandments. Dismas |(talk) 15:34, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
 * (ec) The same way mainstream protestantism handles the contradictions of the Trinity - by a mixture of hypocrisy, and religious re-definition. In particular, I think the saints, including Mary, are not worshiped, but venerated. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:39, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
 * To misquote Huck Finn, "It's OK, because they done it themselves." Also, the term "venerate" originally referred to the worship of the goddess Venus, who I'm guessing did not qualify as a virgin. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:45, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The same way you've had it explained to you, every single time you decide a question on Catholicism is an excuse to post your own personal take on Christianity. They would reply that a statue is a not an idol unless you worship it, and you'd have to be very confused as a Catholic to think you were meant to be worshipping statues. They would reply that the commandment is against having other gods before God, and worshipping those, and that they do nothing of the sort. They would reply that the English word "worship" has had several meanings which have evolved over time, so you must be clear which meaning you intend: that the Latin words "latria", "dulia", "hyperdulia" have no such ambiguity, although they can all legitimately be translated as "worship" in English, given how the English word has carried different meanings. They would reply that latria is due to God alone, whereas dulia can be paid to the saints (or people in general who you honour), and hyperdulia to Mary. But the statue of Mary is obviously not actually Mary. Since this has now been answered, and you have an answer, does this mean you will refrain from asking the same question the next time someone is discussing something where you think the question might appear relevant? Since you already know the answer? 86.156.148.98 (talk) 16:51, 24 December 2014 (UTC)


 * The Basilica and National Shrine of Our Lady of Consolation in Carey, Ohio might be a convenient place for you to visit. Thincat (talk) 15:49, 24 December 2014 (UTC)


 * The word veneration comes from trhe same root as "Venus" but it doesn't mean specifically to worship Venus. "Wean" as in "overweaning" comes from the same PIE root. (See BBB's link above, and follow the link there for Venus.)  Second, the RC church I attended for much of my youth had an alcove with a white (marble-appearing) statue of Mary with a kneeler before it.  You'd occasionally see people kneel and say a prayer (never touching, that's more Mediterranean), but it was much more common to see people arrive early to Mass and sit and do a Rosary.  Finally, an atheist since I was 16, I still say three Hail Mary's when I hear someone I respect has passed.  It's a way of marking the moment to myself, not that I expect it will gain them entry to heaven.
 * Oh, and specifically, walk around the outer perimeter, and if you don't find a statue of a woman, ask the priest. There may also be a grotto outdoors. μηδείς (talk) 17:36, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Do you say Hail Mary in Latin or in the vernacular, and which vernacular language? 71.79.234.132 (talk) 18:19, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I say the Lord's Prayer in the Ruthenian Recension as well as English, but since the closest Byzantine Catholic Church was at an onerous distance we attended a Roman Catholic church during most of my grade school years, except for holidays or when visiting relatives. Since the Hail Mary is not said in mass (as is the Lords Prayer) we learned it in English, as I was post-Vatican II. -- 02:27, 25 December 2014 Medeis
 * Oddly enough I don't seem able to find a text copy of the Church-Slavonic influenced Rusyn language liturgy on line. This is not the best quality video recording, and I hardly expect anyone to listen to the full 1:15:00 of it, but it will give you an idea. -- 02:44, 25 December 2014 Medeis
 * Interesting info. I read that many Latino Catholic immigrants in the United States can't find enough Catholic churches, so they join Protestant churches instead. When you say you recite in English, do you mean Middle English or Modern English? 71.79.234.132 (talk) 10:12 pm, Today (UTC−5)
 * I'm not Latino, Rusyn is Slavic, and the prayer is archaic modern English. μηδείς (talk) 03:56, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

We do have an article on Lady chapel (and probably should have a separate article on "hyperdulia")... AnonMoos (talk) 17:58, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Did anyone ever make a story like this (probably don't read if you've lost someone) or who knows, maybe there's an Aarne-Thompson number for this exact story
I was watching a black and white movie (on the retina of course, does anybody watch video on extra-eyeball screens when they're dreaming?) while I was dreaming. An 8-9 year old girl in the Old West wanted her mother pregnant (presumably she either wanted a sibling or a kind that she lacks). She and her friends tried but had highly misguided ideas of how pregnancies happened so it never would've worked, but managed to accidentally get mom pregnant anyway (thankfully knowledge of the details wasn't given (and the last sentence given by false memory)). Then imparted by unjustified belief is that her mother wouldn't have died without this happening (now this wasn't given in the dream but maybe from suicide or maybe it caused her to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and got killed by Indians) and it shows her hanging at a rather slight angle without a broken neck and lying on a wood thing which meant her feet probably touched the ground (as you can die with only 13 pounds of pressure on your neck or something like that). And a narrator said that she [girl] doesn't know that her [mum] brain is not getting enough oxygen. She still looks light brown (is that possible? Maybe she was unconscious, then entered the sleep cycle from being up all night and got above the "turning-blue level of air", while the coming dream-level metabolism combined with settling or something would kill her? (I'm not a doctor) If so, that's be sad), implying that she could've saved her but didn't realize she was in danger. So presumably she didn't want to bother her sleep (Are kids that naive?) or was in semi-denial and whoever "rescued" her was too late. Fin. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:38, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Um, SMW, were you dreaming when you wrote this? Maybe you should actually wake up first next time and then post your refdesk q :-) --Trovatore (talk) 19:37, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I once had 23 false awakenings in a row, after several times thinking this feels so much more like awake than the last one (knowing that this was how you tell), I must be awake now. Then I gave up and started counting awakenings. Soon afterwards, it became a drill - as soon as I wake up I look for errors as fast as I can so I can get it over with and get annoyed when a reality mistake doesn't come quickly. Sometimes I'm not in my room. Once I was like, "Wait, I don't live here anymore. How could I forget that?" "Okay, the bed is not quite where it was. Next!, [explore, wake up], This is a casino. Next!, [explore, wake up], It's daytime in the real world. Next!, [explore, wake up], My building is on my old place's street. Next!, [explore, wake up], There's a hotel on the ground floor. Next!, [explore, wake up], That woman makes me horny, and they never object when I'm dreaming, but I can't risk it, I MUST look for a certain continuity error [explore, wake up], Am I awake now?!? I've been dreaming for at least 20 minutes by now, so only 10 more minutes until I can't be asleep anymore" When I reached the outermost level I was like "how could I have ever thought those awakenings were real, it's like comparing an elephant's weight to an ant's in the level of realness. I'd have bet my life I'm awake the first instant, just like always." I'm awake now. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:10, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Also, I didn't watch this video on purpose, clearly when it's in your eyeball you don't have much choice what you watch, sometimes it's comedicly inaccurate 360° documentaries, sometimes it's 0 to low-free will Matrixes with you as prophet/psychic and character, sometimes a holodeck.. maybe this is strange to those who only watch films in living rooms or cinemas if sleeping. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:15, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
 * What? Evan (talk&#124;contribs) 19:16, 24 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Sometimes when I dream I get shown ridiculously inaccurate documentaries by, um, myself (or more accurately, the parts of the brain that come up with this stuff). They're documentaries since I'm not a character can't affect it and I know it, but having access to more advanced graphics means that I don't have to watch on a screen, it can be pretty much how PBS or the History Channel would do it when people have 360°x360° TVs with a clear force field to stand on. Sometimes I can even take a few steps so it's a holodeck. There are anachronisms or other errors every few sentences but I watch for the lols . As you're being shown this in your eyes and not a dream theater, TV etc. your only choice is to watch or not pay attention and they're never boring so I always watch. Also, just like on Google Earth can have elevation exaggeration often there's emotional exaggeration compared to if this happened to you awake (not possible with our technology) so you can really get into it. If I'm aware I'm dreaming I watch for logical inconsistencies and um, interesting new facts (steam trains in Ancient Egypt..) though I have to wake to catch the least obvious. This time it was fiction. Sometimes it's a holodeck play so I the only free will I have is what's not in the script but I know the story from being a prophet of the Greek myth type guess. More like a dream of a universe with too much fate to suspend disbelief so I have to follow the script even if I get horny or am somewhat scared of the ending. It's kind of awesome if you were religious growing up it's kind of awesome because that's the only time you can feel what a prophet feels. Sometimes it's repetitively boring or tediously long (often involving flying/levitating long distances and I'm like it at least it'll be over within 30 minutes cause that's the maximum amount of time a dream can last.. Often it's a normal dream on the free will vs fate scale (but half are lucid), though sometimes somewhere in between. Also I'm aware that being in a TV room or theater and watching is not the usual form of dream, but most probably have at least had one (I have). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:14, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I was in hospital last year with internal bleeding from an accident, and I was literally dying, and had a dream (knowing full well that I was completely awake) that I was watching a film about war, with all sorts of different types of soldiers from different areas and eras fighting each other, with all my favourite actors in it. It was bizarre, and it kept repeating. I enjoyed 'watching' it the first time, and maybe the second time, but after that it became boring, because it was the same every time. Then I had a dream about myself, and my life over the past 40 years, but from a third person point of view. Like, my life was flashing before me, as they say. Then I went blind, for some reason, before they took me to have the operation. I have a lot of lucid dreams normally. The trick is to notice that something is different. Try to levitate, or put your hand through a wall, or ask the pretty actress to take her clothes off.  KägeTorä - ( 影 虎 )  ( Chin Wag )  14:57, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The night after reading SMW's OP I had a lucid dream complete with multiple "interesting facts". (Although it didn't really become a lucid dream until the interesting facts started popping up, after which I continued to watch for the lols.) I had no idea reading SMW posts could induce similar experiences! I should go search their contributions! Double sharp (talk) 07:34, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Strangely enough, I had not read/seen Ancient Greek, twisty, tearjerker, horror, Native American or Westerns fiction in ages, nor had them on my mind, and have never used drugs. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:26, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Is there an age limit to join the monastery?
In a biography of Ikkyū's life, Ikkyu was trained as a Buddhist monk somewhere in his early teens, though the popular portrayal of him in the mass media makes him look like a child. In a lengthy film adaptation of Journey to the West, the Buddhist monk protagonist is adopted by a Buddhist monastery as a little baby, and he's raised to be a monk all his life. But when I watched a film adaptation of Thérèse of Lisieux's life, it seems there was some concern of admitting an underage girl into the monastery. Nevertheless, she entered the monastery with the pope's permission, and she was 15. So, what do Christian monasteries do if they discover a little baby at their doorstep? Do they adopt it and raise it as monastic, or do they send it to a local orphanage? 71.79.234.132 (talk) 21:18, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Nuns often ran the local orphanages. See also Baby hatch. Rmhermen (talk) 04:34, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

"Holy Spirit" in Greek Gospels
The Holy spirit article has the hebrew that the Tanakh/Torah uses, and also the Arabic used in the Qur'ran, but what is the Greek uses in the orignal-language Gospel? (and maybe original-language Aramaic term as well) I can't seem to find an original language, non-translated Bible, which is suprising considering how important a book it is. (I would actually be interested in buying an all-original-languages Qur'ran.) Also perhaps an IPA pronounciation as well.Scientus (talk) 21:46, 24 December 2014 (UTC)


 * See Holy Spirit (Christianity). Any university with a religious studies program or the like should have original-language books of scripture via its bookstore, but Amazon and the like will, too. Try "Koine Greek New Testament" for that particular one. My understanding of Islam is that any text marketed as the "Holy Qu'ran" ought to be in the original Arabic, as translations don't retain the sacredness of the original text. &mdash; Lomn 21:59, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Try for a  Interlinear Greek-English New Testament if you don't read Koine Greek.--Aspro (talk) 22:33, 24 December 2014 (UTC)


 * It's Ἁγιον Πνευμα Hagion Pneuma, as in the Trinitarian formula. You can probably acquire a student (UBS) edition of Novum Testamentum Graece at a reasonable price. AnonMoos (talk) 22:04, 24 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes. πνεῦμα equates to the modern neopsyche ego state.--Aspro (talk) 22:09, 24 December 2014 (UTC)


 * When the good book says the disciples were filled with the holy ghost / spirit, it simply means that they now knew how to separate themselves from getting their judgements contaminated by their  archeo- and  extero- states. The church could do themselves a favour by stop dressing it up in language that modern people find difficult to grasp. But then again they might find themselves out of a job.   After all. Power is maintained by withholding understanding to those whom the powerful considers to be inferior and below them. It's a psychological smart trick that the pharaohs  of ancient Egypt seized upon. Keep the people in the dark and feed them manure and promise these mushrooms, that one day, if they are obedient (to you first and to the Good Lord  second), (notice the priority), that they too, may-one-day see the light and bask in it - Hallelujah.--Aspro (talk) 23:01, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Could this possibly be done without the politics? If it is humour/ satire, it is not new, so I have taken the liberty of reading it as a purely political side-comment. Thanks, IBE (talk) 05:14, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
 * As Politics is defined by Wikipedia as the practice and theory of influencing other people on a global, civic or individual level. It must encompass that too...--Aspro (talk) 21:52, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
 * And don't forget Friday's meal, the Holy Mackerel. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:37, 25 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Biblegateway includes a modern edition of the Greek new testament (SBLGNT), see e.g. Luke 1:1. The text seems to be courtesy the Society for Biblical Literature, about which I know knew nothing else ;-) (But Wikipedia does, at Society of Biblical Literature. It seems to be quite a good source). The society does offer a free download. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:38, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
 * And let me add (after a good night's sleep ;-): The reason why you cannot find a full untranslated Bible in Greek is that only large parts of the New Testament were originally written in Koine Greek. The books now in the Christian "Old Testament" were largely written in Hebrew. The best-known translation into Koine is the Septuagint, most likely from the third century BCE hellenised Egypt, and that seems to be the version known to and used by most New Testament writers. Septuagint has a number of links to different editions, some of which seem to be online. But this version long predates the harmonisation efforts of the later church. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:20, 26 December 2014 (UTC)