Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2014 February 28

= February 28 =

Peculiar sound
The music in these tracks start with a peculiar sound. Is this from an instrument or is it vocal? Can it only be achieved electronically perhaps? track 1, track 2. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.215.47.59 (talk) 14:33, 28 February 2014 (UTC)


 * My first guess when I listened was Diggeridoo. Star Lord -  星王 (talk) 14:49, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
 * (e/c) The first one could be a didgeridoo, and could be produced electronically as well. The second one sounds different and definitely sounds electronic. --Viennese Waltz 14:50, 28 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Track 2 seems to be a synth emulation of a Buddhist chant (more of a Shigin style than examples in article). E.g.:Tibetan Buddhist Chants of Namgyal Monastery~E: 71.20.250.51 (talk) 17:52, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[changed start time to better sample]21:38, 28 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Neither sounds "human" enough to be a real didgeridoo. They could be synthesised attempts to make a similar sound. HiLo48 (talk) 04:21, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
 * #1 sounds exactly like Throat singing.--Shirt58 (talk) 04:36, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Number of convictions in Ireland
Today, someone of facebook asked, in relation to this article Roman Catholic Church sexual abuse scandal in Ireland "How many irish priests have been convicted for sexual abuse? "

I have read several conflicting articles. The total numbers in all these articles seem very low, between 0 and 9. I am no going to refer to any articles, risking BLP. Could anyone help me, for the improvement of the article, on how to get a reliable number, or a reliable range? Star Lord -  星王 (talk) 14:47, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The National Board for Safeguarding Children in the Catholic Church has published reviews which include counts of recent allegations and convictions, a few dioceses at a time, for several years. It seems that it does not yet have counts for the entire country. --Cam (talk) 15:07, 28 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Thank you for pointing this article out to me. I have now read all of the reports. There are lost of numbers on allegations, etc, but the only mention I could find in any of the reports on convictions was this "Some striking trends emerge. The number of convictions from both dioceses and religious orders for serious offences against children is low. " from the latest report so far, 2012. Star Lord -  星王 (talk) 16:25, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

In the article Roman Catholic Church sexual abuse scandal in Ireland, and all the articles that it points to, I have only found 5 convictions. In this news report, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-15960621 I count to 6, possibly overlapping the 5 in the article, but no names are mentioned. This is from 1975 forwards out of a total of 40,000 priests. Star Lord -  星王 (talk) 16:49, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Would these numbers be worth mentioning in the article? I have seen that there are some more reports expected to be finished in 2014, but there is no guarantee that they will raise the number. Star Lord -  星王 (talk) 17:02, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Both the numbers 0 and 9 come from unrealiable sources. The best source I have is the BBC report above, with the number 6. Star Lord -  星王 (talk) 17:03, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
 * If you edit the article to add this number, be sure to include language such as "As of 2011," (the date of that BBC article), because the number could change, and could already have changed. Marco polo (talk) 17:40, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Look for the NBSCCCI reviews of "tranches" of dioceses, for example on this page. I think each of the linked pdfs has a table (Table 1) giving statistics since 1975 including convictions.--Cam (talk) 17:45, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Here are the dioceses and orders reviewed so far: 1st tranche, 2nd tranche, 3rd tranche, and 4th tranche.--Cam (talk) 18:10, 28 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I have gone thru them. They seem to be compatible with the other BBC and the existing wikipedia article, and I have now added the info to the article together with your reference and the BBC reference.

Star Lord -  星王 (talk) 18:50, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Is there a Western secular equivalent to "Honor your mother and your father" or "filial piety" or some form of parental respect?
I am not really sure if Western nonreligious atheists have a concept of parental respect and obedience. How do Westerners teach their children to obey their parents? Do they borrow the teachings from the Bible but still reject the religious component, or is it just assumed culturally that children are obligated to obey their parents? 140.254.227.171 (talk) 18:23, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
 * All people are capable of understanding any moral principle. Secular atheists are allowed to teach their children to respect their elders you know.  They're also allowed to not murder, not steal, etc.  Atheists are not forbidden from obeying the rules of civil society or of following moral principles.  -- Jayron  32  18:50, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Historically there is the Roman paterfamilias who could demand ultimate obedience up to executing his own children as long as they remained in his household. μηδείς (talk) 18:55, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Has it occurred to the OP that these values exist in almost all cultures, including ones that have never heard of the Bible? They don't need to be "borrowed from the Bible". It would be as true to say that the authors of the Bible "borrowed" them from earlier cultures. Paul B (talk) 19:45, 28 February 2014 (UTC)


 * The closest thing I can think of would be if the law of a country contains any clause that would compel a child to obey their parent. I do not recall reading about obligations of children towards parents, only about the rights parents may have over their children, which is the other way around. Star Lord -  星王 (talk) 18:57, 28 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I learned it from He-Man and the Masters of the Universe. After each episode, a character explictly lays down the moral of the story. Respecting/obeying/loving your parents was probably the most common theme, if not giving people who look different a chance. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:03, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, InedibleHulk. I was reading this article, because I was searching for "Western family values". I mean, even among atheists in the Far East, people obey/respect their parents and family members, so I wondered if there was a Western equivalent. I suspected Christianity is a powerful force in the West, so that may contribute to the prevailing view of respecting/honoring/obeying one's parents. Western atheists may not be religious, but that movie series may be a secular way for promoting the family value. 140.254.227.171 (talk) 19:10, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
 * He-Man's just one example. Many, many Western children's shows impart similar moral and social lessons, and if you look at the credits for more recent shows, you'll increasingly find a psychological consultant listed. Children are more prone to trust preaching when it comes from a funny/heroic "friend" than from a stranger at church. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:38, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, at least you know what I'm talking about. Medeis and Jayron32 completely missed the point and gave really irrelevant results. 140.254.227.171 (talk) 19:41, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
 * You get what you pay for. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:57, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
 * That's true. As a free bonus answer, the parents themselves are often quite good at commanding respect and/or obedience. Big people have a natural edge over small ones, especially if they also buy the toys and food. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:07, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The general picture the OP draws reminds me of Frank Zappa, pretty much of an atheist and also "conservative" in the traditional way, i.e. more of a libertarian. His 4 kids seemed to turn out pretty well, and I gather that he and his wife ran a pretty tight ship at home in terms of discipline and moral values. The point being that morality does not require religion. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:07, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia says he's raised Catholic. It's plausible to think some of those Catholic moral upbringing became his own. :P Sort of like Amy Chua's Chinese upbringing. 140.254.227.171 (talk) 23:39, 28 February 2014 (UTC)


 * There's a recent German case where a man was forced to pay support to his faher, who had divorced his mother in 1971, cut off all contact in 1972, and made an unrelated woman sole beneficiary in his will. μηδείς (talk) 19:21, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Germany has filial responsibility laws. Similar judgments have been made on the basis of such laws in the United States, such as this case. These laws exist in a majority of U.S. states . Quite apart from laws, the idea of obligation to parents is a nearly universal ideal. Marco polo (talk) 21:13, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

I am a Western non-religious atheist, and I am happy to confirm that I have a fully-functioning concept of respect for my parents. The same is true for all the other atheists I have met. All the atheists I know have moral codes, which they have generally learnt from their parents and pass on to their children. The main difference is that children who are brought up in a religious household may be told not to do some things because they are sinful (that is, would upset a god), but children who are brought up in an atheist household may be told not to do some things because they are hurtful (that is, would upset or damage some person). So a child from a religious household might be told not to steal because it is a sin, while a child from an atheist household might be told not to steal because it will upset the person whose property they have stolen. Similarly, a child from a religious household will be told to respect his parents because to do otherwise would be a sin, while a child from an atheist household will learn to respect his parents because they take care of him, and because by following their guidance and imitating their behaviour he will be a happier and healthier person. Children in atheist families respect their parents because their parents earn that respect through their own good behaviour. Because children in atheist households learn a morality that is based on things they can actually see and understand, it might be that they have to learn to be more considerate of other people at an earlier age, and learn to identify good behaviour in others more quickly, but I haven't seen any research on this. RomanSpa (talk) 02:48, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Just a point of order; children who are brought up in religious households are also allowed to be taught to not steal, murder, etc. because of the harm it causes to other people. There are no laws, rules, or regulations preventing religious parents from teaching their children about the societal and personal consequences of harmful actions.  -- Jayron  32  19:42, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Please see social safety net. EllenCT (talk) 01:26, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Some secular wisdom: “There’s no such thing as a free lunch;” If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is; You get what you pay for; “If something is worth doing, it’s worth doing well;” Where there’s smoke, there’s fire; Be careful what you wish for. DOR (HK) (talk) 07:08, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Correspondence with Japanese death-row inmates?
Is it possible at all? I would like to contact Tomohiro Kato before he gets hanged. I'm working for a psychology project on the case regarding Kato. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.178.141.180 (talk) 21:20, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
 * see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Timothyhere/Archive μηδείς (talk) 22:32, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Is any wikibook on history used in any school?
The idea here of a common history book http://www.bbc.com/news/business-26073748 contributing to peace is fascinating to me. Sure enough,open source wikibook has history books like "A Survey of Modern European History" https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/European_History. ( A few years ago, a common history book for the EU was attempted but failed. Please do not start a debate here guessing why the project failed, since the reasons were obvious and is not what I am asking about. Perhaps schools in the EU could use his wiki history books instead? Is any wikibook on history used in any school? Star Lord  -  星王 (talk) 22:42, 28 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Can we take it your actual question is "Is any wikibook on history used in any school?" μηδείς (talk) 22:48, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. The rest of the text only serves to give a reason why I am asking. The only question, as you correctly pointed out is "Is any wikibook on history used in any school?" Star Lord -  星王 (talk) 22:57, 28 February 2014 (UTC)


 * That will be almost impossible to answer, since most syllabi are behind some sort of password-protected portal nowadays. Not something one can really research, although there may be some undergrads or teachers here who can comment on personal experience. μηδείς (talk) 23:08, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Did you even try? There are tons of syllabi online that are not password protected. I'd guess the majority syllabi posted online don't need passwords for access, but that's just my guess ;) SemanticMantis (talk) 20:56, 2 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Sure, schools occasionally use wikibooks, often to supplement other texts (e.g. not the main/sole textbook.) As Medeis mentions, it is a little hard to search for, but if you spend some time I'm sure you can find plenty of examples. I did a google search for /site:.edu history wikibook/ (restricted to .edu sites). I found several syllabi where teachers expect their students to contribute to wikibooks, e.g. . I'd suspect that the students also learn from the book whilst they are attempting to improve it. This is a class that is mildly historical, and has a wikibook as a part of the course readings. I'll admit neither of those is exactly what you're looking for, but I'm sure further searching in this manner will pay off. SemanticMantis (talk) 20:58, 2 March 2014 (UTC)