Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2014 July 15

= July 15 =

Louis II and the Jagiellons
King Casimir IV Jagiellon of Poland fathered Sigismund I the Old of Poland, who fathered Sigismund II Augustus, who was without issue, causing the formation of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Casimir also fathered Vladislaus II of Hungary, who fathered Louis II of Hungary, who died in battle at Mohacs without issue.

Now, had Louis II survived the battle with the Ottomans and outlived his extended relative in Poland, Sigismund II Augustus, as the last member of the Jagiellon dynasty, could have Sigismund realistically declared Louis as the heir of Poland (and Lithuania by extension) and Louis' potential son after him, or is it likelier that Sigismund would have gone the route he did historically and established the Union of Lublin? Thanks for any help. 70.54.115.75 (talk) 00:07, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
 * According to the article titled Union of Lublin, the Union would have happened anyways. It does not appear that dynastic concerns had very much to do with the formation of the Union itself, the King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania had been the same person for generations, and the Polish nobility had been growing in strength and was asserting its power.  My understanding from reading the relevant articles is that the Union was likely to occur in some form, even if the Jagiellon dynasty hadn't died out.  -- Jayron  32  00:52, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

George F. Wright
Was George F. Wright a Republican or a Democrat? I am finding some sources indicating he was a Republican instead. I need more sources, possibly something more direct, just be sure. Any help finding these sources would helpful.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:47, 15 July 2014 (UTC)


 * What leads you to doubt the cited information at the article page saying he was a Republican? John M Baker (talk) 15:37, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Langton, near Warlington, England
Where in the world is Langton, near Warlington, England. There is a lot of English towns and cities called Langton but none called Warlington?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 06:54, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
 * There is a Langton near Darlington. Perhaps a typo? Deor (talk) 09:05, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Your link mentions that he was associated with the Wesson foundry, which seems to have been in Walsall. I can't find any Langton near there though.


 * http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2009/07/03/historic-foundry-closing-its-gates/


 * I did think of Warlingham but, again, I can't see a Langton in the area. Dalliance (talk) 12:48, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Nor is there a Langton near Warrington, Cheshire. CS Miller (talk) 14:54, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
 * It might be Darlington. His wife was born there.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 16:07, 15 July 2014 (UTC)


 * William Wilson Wright's parents and siblings were apparently still living in Langton, County Durham at the time of the 1881 census. The Find a Grave website also has "Birth: 26 JAN 1846 Langton, Durham, England", although the source for that isn't quoted. Alansplodge (talk) 18:16, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Tolkien question
This is a question about the writings of JRR Tolkien. Did the Elves of Doriath ever fight dragons in the first age? I think I remember they withdrew behind their borders before dragons were invented and reading the articles about the battles of Beleriand I can't find if they came out and joined in any of the battles with dragons. Thanks. 184.147.140.76 (talk) 17:26, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Quenta Silmarillion, chapter 20 says that both Mablung and Beleg joined the fifth battle (Nirnaeth Arnoediad).  -- Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 19:37, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I guess if those two were mentioned by name it implies that no one else went. Is there any mention of the survivors of Doriath joining in the war of wrath? 184.147.140.76 (talk) 23:17, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
 * One thing to consider is that Mablung and Beleg were commanders of soldiers; if we as readers of the fiction are supposed to pretend that the Silmarillion is a quasi-historical account from this ancient world (and I think that's right)—and so therefore make some background assumptions about what is happening—I think an implication would be that the soldiers under Mablung and Beleg's command went with them.
 * Chapter 24, prior to the War of Wrath, says that the remaining sons of Fëanor destroyed the "exiles of Gondolin and the remnant of Doriath", so I guess that was the end of them. -- Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 00:13, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
 * And to problematize that last point: In the Unfinished Tales, "History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Appendix B".  Talking about the realm of Thranduil, it says Oropher and "a handful of Sindar" (maybe including Oropher's son, Thranduil—the text is not definite) "(and other similar adventurers forgotten in the legends or only briefly named) came from Doriath after its ruin".  So I guess "legends" here refers to the Quenta Simarillion, and there were Elves of Doriath who survived both the ruin and the destruction of the "remnant" by the sons of Fëanor, despite the suggestion that they were all destroyed.  What's doubly interesting for your question is that this part of the text may be saying that Thranduil was an Elf of Doriath.  I know in Peter Jackson's Hobbit, Thranduil claims to have battled the dragons in the First Age.  I'm not sure if Jackson made this up, or if it's based on something in Tolkien's materials.  If it is accurate, then this bit in the Unfinished Tales would mean that Thranduil was another Elf of Doriath who fought dragons (assuming that Thranduil would have lived with his father). -- Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 05:21, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for such a thorough answer. That indeed was the source of my curiosity, since the claim didn't fit what I remembered of the books but I don't have them to reference myself. 184.147.140.76 (talk) 11:17, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
 * If that's the question: There were other Sindarin elves who became Elves of Doriath after fighting in the fourth Battle of Beleriand (the Battle of Sudden Flame), even though they were not Elves of Doriath during the battle (Quenta Silmarillion, chapter 18). It's conceivable that Thranduil could have been part of those elves.  And, as mentioned, it is also conceivable he went with Mablung or Beleg to the fifth Battle, in which case he would have fought as part of Fingon's forces.  Apparently some of Fingon's forces survived, even if most died (it says that "Turgon took...all that remained of the host of Gondolin and such of Fingon's people as could be gathered...towards the Pass of Sirion" and, of course, "Turgon had escaped...and marred [Morgoth's] victory"). -- Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 19:36, 16 July 2014 (UTC)