Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2014 July 29

= July 29 =

Median earnings and wealth
I see articles like List of countries by wealth per adult with wealth shown per adult and per capita. Does Wikipedia have articles with median figures? If so, I can't find them.

With insane inequality these days (The 85 richest people in the world own the same wealth as the bottom 3.5 billion people. -- Source: Conference on Inclusive Capitalism), would articles about this sort of thing be more useful if median figures were used? I'm bad at maths, so tell me if this is a stupid question. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 02:51, 29 July 2014 (UTC)


 * See Middle Class Political Economist: U.S. Trails at Least 15 OECD Countries in Median Wealth (Thursday, July 19, 2012)
 * —Wavelength (talk) 03:16, 29 July 2014 (UTC)


 * See List of countries by income equality and List of countries by distribution of wealth.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 03:21, 29 July 2014 (UTC)


 * See "Median household income".—Wavelength (talk) 03:25, 29 July 2014 (UTC)


 * See BBC News - What is the world&#039;s average wage? (29 March 2012)
 * and Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2014 May 20.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 03:32, 29 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks. :) Actually, only Median household income shows median. The other links don't. And middleclasspoliticaleconomist and BBC are blocked here in China. Thank you, though. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 03:58, 29 July 2014 (UTC)


 * And yes, medians are quite useful when something is as wildly skewed as incomes or wealth. If you use averages, the population appears to be much wealthier than they really are.  For example, if we have a group of 101 people, 100 of which have a $20,000 yearly income, and 1 of which has a hundred million dollar annual income, the average is $1,009,901, and the median is $20,000.  If the income of the majority drop in half to $10,000 a year, while the rich guy's income doubles to 200 million a year, the average then climbs to $1,990,099, while the median drops to $10,000.  So, FOX News would use the average, and say everything is going great, as average incomes have almost doubled to nearly two million dollars.  However, the situation is far from rosy for the 99%, as median incomes show. StuRat (talk) 12:30, 29 July 2014 (UTC)


 * The numbers in the various sources fpr median income are discrepant, with some showing the US near the top. The GINI chart shows the US with less income disparity than many of the countries claimed to be more equitable. What gives? Edison (talk) 13:29, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Wealth, rather than income figures for the US are particularly striking. See Wealth Levels, Wealth Inequality, and the Great Recession. See also The Typical Household, Now Worth a Third Less and US median wealth is down by 20 percent since 1984. In the past 30 years, median wealth has actually declined, just as in Stu's example, and as Dean Baker points out in the last link, things are actually worse than -20% because of the disappearance of Defined benefit pension plans.John Z (talk) 04:01, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Hail, hail Fredonia, land of the brave and free
Fans of the Marx Brothers are well aware of the incident regarding Duck Soup in which Fredonia, New York attempted to get the Marxist country renamed. As far as we know, did any other Fredonias make official statements about the name of the country in the movie? Nyttend (talk) 04:31, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I've wondered why Sylvania didn't complain. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:49, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Roman ball game (Follis)
I'm looking for information about a Roman ball game called Follis (described in our article at Balloon (game), but not very usefully). Anything which would help to create a playable version would be appreciated! My googling has so far only revealed that the objective was not to let the ball touch the ground. (This is for a LARP event, so perfect authenticity is not required, but it's nice to keep it close if we can). Other suggestions for ancient world (around the Mediterranean) games played with a roughly football sized object (in this case, the head of Medusa*) also appreciated.

*I never said it was a sensible idea... MChesterMC (talk) 11:55, 29 July 2014 (UTC)


 * for whatever reason the catalan wiki gives more information, https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hist%C3%B2ria_de_la_pilota_valenciana talks about how it was a heavy leather ball filled with air and kept up using the arms (fists or armbands) and played in small enclosures perhaps as to avoid injury..the source in the article you linked to gives some additional information on follis http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Gcv4WxCSK0gC&pg=PA606#v=onepage&q&f=false such as that the armband is a wooden bracer/gauntlet thing idek?? ~Helicopter  Llama~  13:37, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * also this marcus guy called it "the least violent game"
 * That's not Martial's characterization, that's an endnote written by the editor: in this case Rev. H.M. Stevenson, M.A.  ☯.Zen  Swashbuckler  .☠  14:25, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Seems like a volleyball-type game. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 16:16, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

"A Study of the Geography of 1 Enoch 17-19"

 * Please quote this for me/us at Biblical cosmology...
 * Bautch, Kelley Coblentz (2003). A Study of the Geography of 1 Enoch 17-19. Brill. ISBN 9789004131033., pp. 233–234.
 * As you may guess I do not have access to this work.
 * This work is cited at the end of Biblical cosmology (currently note 54) in Biblical cosmology. I had to change the article text here and now I am wondering if the text is accurate. Does Bautch really say "Enoch traveled to the ends of the earth" or the like? All I can find is a text in 1 Enoch saying that such and such will happen "even to the ends of the earth"... and for this Wikipedia article, that is something very different. tahc chat 16:10, 29 July 2014 (UTC)


 * If you have JSTOR access (I don't), the answer might be found in: A Study of the Geography of 1 Enoch 17-19: "No One Has Seen What I Have Seen" by Kelley Coblentz Bautch —in:
 * George J. Brooke; Dead Sea Discoveries. Vol. 13, No. 2 (2006), pp. 266-270 Published by: BRILL; Article Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/4193402
 * —71.20.250.51 (talk) 18:42, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Dear User:71.20.250.51-- that is just a review of the book I am asking about. Does anyone have access to pages 233–234 of the book (A Study of the Geography of 1 Enoch 17-19) itself? tahc chat 19:08, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * One search referenced that review with something like: "...Enoch then traveled north, to the ends of the earth" (paraphrase: mine). Although this doesn't relate to that citation, there is an additional reference for [1 Enoch: Chapter 23; 1,2]: "From thence I went to another place to the west of the ends of the earth." — Book of Enoch. From- The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament R.H. Charles Oxford: The Clarendon Press. Section I. Chapters I-XXXVI on: Wesley Center Online; Wesley Center for Applied Theology, Northwest Nazarene University   —71.20.250.51 (talk) 19:41, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Joseph Lane's personal slave
Joseph Lane kept a personal slave until 1878. Do we know who he/she was named, where they came from, how Lane bought or came to enslave him/her and the person's ultimate fate?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:40, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * If you're feeling ambitious (unlike myself), you could check out the Northwest Digital Archives:


 * Guide to the Joseph Lane papers 1848-1887 : Joseph Lane papers, Ax 183, Special Collections & University Archives, University of Oregon Libraries, Eugene, Oregon
 * —71.20.250.51 (talk) 18:52, 29 July 2014 (UTC) —P.s.—  ...or maybe not.  The "digital" part of the archive is just a description of the (non-digital) content of the archive: so, unless you happen to be in Eugene, Oregon... 71.20.250.51 (talk) 19:04, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Not to be confused with Eugene Onegin. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  02:31, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Go to your room Jack. C7nel (talk) 05:59, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Where is J. Howard Marshall's money?
Both Anna Nicole AND the son who was fighting her for the nearly $50 million inheritance died before the case was settled. What happened to the money? Is it still in limbo? Has anyone received the money? What will likely happen to it? Bali88 (talk) 21:44, 29 July 2014 (UTC)


 * "The case is currently pending before the 9th circuit court of appeals". Mogism (talk) 21:49, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually, our article is out of date and the case is pending before the U.S. District Court for the Central District of California, which sits in Los Angeles. The court is considering awarding the plaintiff (Anna Nicole's estate) damages based on Pierce Marshall's misconduct in the court proceeding.  John M Baker (talk) 13:56, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks guys! What misconduct? Do you know? Bali88 (talk) 03:49, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The court wrote an opinion on this, but I'm not prepared to summarize it. If someone is interested in it for purposes of updating the article, email me and I'll reply with a copy of the opinion. John M Baker (talk) 23:51, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Have relevant newspaper clippings but incomplete citation data
I've been given a scrapbook with many newspaper and journal clippings about a notable family company established in 1889 in Seattle, Washington, USA. I've drafted an article on the company's history, but the clippings are presenting me with some citation difficulties. Some are hand-labeled with citation information, but others have incomplete data--only dates published, or no date or title of source at all. Is there a way to verify/find information for complete citations from the titles of the clippings from the early 1900's? Some of the clippings are from the larger newspapers---Seattle Times, Seattle Post Intelligencer, Tacoma News Tribune and Ledger. Others are from industry journals like Barrel and Box, Daily Journal of Commerce, Wood and Wood Products, and some appear to be from church-related newspapers. I appreciate any advice you can provide. --Grand&#39;mere Eugene (talk) 22:46, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * You may be able to plug phrases from the articles into a search (in a newspaper database or the like) and find the dates/sources that way. It's similar to putting a line from a song into a search engine in order to find its title.--Cam (talk) 01:51, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Wood and Wood Products is still published although they recently stripped the title down to Wood Products. I have read that magazine on and off for 30 years. Here is their publisher's website. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  08:15, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

British Daughters of the American Revolution
Are there any members of the Daughters of the American Revolution who are from the British side of the war (Not talking about British chapters of the DAR, though)? I am guessing not unless they have other ancestors who fought on the American side. But is there an organization for descendants of British combatants and loyalists?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:15, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Also have their been any descendants of American Indians who have sought membership in the DAR? According to American Revolutionary War, five tribes fought on the side of the Americans.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:15, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Kavebear, you might be interested in the free DAR publication, Forgotten Patriots – African American and American Indian Patriots of the Revolutionary War: A Guide to Service, Sources, and Studies (2008). http://www.dar.org/library/forgotten-patriots links to free download of 874 pp. PDF book,and a 82 pp. 2008-2011 Supplement. Fascinating stuff! Paulscrawl (talk) 20:59, 30 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Regarding the DAR, you should review the website, which indicates you need to be a female, descended from someone who fought on the American side. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:23, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Also this Daughters of the American Revolution, which is why I assumed it wouldn't be, but there is always outspoken individuals who don't abide by rules and lawsuits and everything. This question might be farfetched as asking if African Americans can join the DAR fifty years ago.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:31, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * There's also the older but perhaps less well known Sons of the American Revolution, which has essentially the same requirements as the DAR. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:45, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * So Benny's descendents through his daughter Sophia could join (or at least apply). Clarityfiend (talk) 05:48, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Theoretically, anyone could apply. Acceptance would be up to the organization. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:23, 30 July 2014 (UTC)


 * You may be interested inUnited Empire Loyalist, the honorific awarded to British sympathizers (an award accompanied by a land allotment) who resettled in Canada following the Revolutionary War. It does not apply to their descendants, though, only to the original Brits. --Grand&#39;mere Eugene (talk) 23:44, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * My grandfather, who worked for Sears for a few decades in the middle of the last century, opening new stores in Canada during the '50s, liked to tell the story of how he was at some function or other in (I think) Ontario; upon hearing there was an American in the room, this guy comes up to him, glowering, and says "I want you to know I'm a United Empire Loyalist!" Spoiling for some kind of fight.  Well, my granddad's been in Canada for a while at this point but never in one place for more than a few years, he doesn't know what the hell that is.  So he looks at the guy, puts on a big salesman smile, and says to general laughter, "Well, I'm a Presbyterian myself!"   ☯.Zen  Swashbuckler  .☠  15:42, 30 July 2014 (UTC)


 * In the episode of Who Do You Think You Are? featuring Rob Lowe, he discovered that one of his ancestors had been a German who had fought for the British, been captured by the rebels, and accepted an American amnesty. As the ancestor had subsequently given monetary support to the rebels, Lowe was permitted to join the Sons of the American Revolution. So I guess the answer is "As long as your ancestor ended up on the 'right' side, and did something about it, and you can prove it, you're in". It seems very weird to me as a British genealogist. We have no direct equivalent here; while much was once made of having an ancestor who fought at the Battle of Hastings, in fact almost every Briton, of almost any ethnicity, is very likely to be descended not just from someone at the battle, but from William the Conqueror himself. AlexTiefling (talk) 21:27, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, 700 years is a big difference in time. While mathematically, it seems beyond likely that anyone with any European ancestry is descended from every European alive in the 11th century, (see Pedigree collapse for a discussion of the mathematics), there are two important distinction to be made 1) That is decidedly NOT true for the case in America, where 1776 is only 10 generations or so, AND most Americans have a genetic heritage that entirely arrived much more recently than that.  Most Americans find that literally every ancestor they have is a more recent arrival in the U.S., only 10% (ish) of Americans would qualify for The Mayflower Society for example, and when you come forward another 5-6 generations to the Revolution, people have even less ancestors to "hit" someone who fought in the Revolution 2) There's a difference between knowing that you have an ancestry trail back to William the Conqueror, and being able to name all those ancestors.  A big part of genealogy is not just proving you're descended from someone like William the Conqueror, but knowing how to get from point A to point B.  While every British resident with any British ancestry is absolutely descended from William the Conqueror, very few can reliably name every ancestor between him and them... -- Jayron  32  00:52, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh, I know all that. I was simply illustrating the cultural divide entailed in this kind of exercise. AlexTiefling (talk) 15:08, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
 * AlexTiefling -- They were usually called "Hessians"; see Hessian (soldiers)... -- AnonMoos (talk) 06:31, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Of course. But I grew up using 'hessian' to refer to sackcloth/burlap, and now I study German history, 'Hessian' can mean anyone from Hesse, not just a certain class of mercenary. AlexTiefling (talk) 15:08, 31 July 2014 (UTC)


 * I'd expect that some DAR members have ancestors both on the American and British sides, as many of the British loyalists remained in the new US after their side lost. There were many in the area around New York City, for example, including escaped slaves who fled to NYC for protection from their former masters by the British.  Some left after the war, but others remained.  StuRat (talk) 15:21, 31 July 2014 (UTC)