Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2014 March 4

= March 4 =

I have a vole, now what do I do?
I should probably have just kept my mouth shut. But when I went in the garage this weekend I heard some rustling. First I thought it was a bird. Dad had a plastic grocery bag (it turns out with a few ponds of grass seed in it) hanging at head heighth off the end of the track for the overhead garage door.

I went to the living room and told them I found out that we actually had a hamster eating the seed, not a field mouse as has long been suspected. Mom croaked what?!?! (They are closer to 80 than 70, but quite fit and active) So I said, well, actually it's a vole. She said eew, they are blind and eat worms.

Dad said no, it's a rodent. (I doubt that clarified things.) I said it's cute, it's like a hamster, and it hid when it saw me. (I.e., it went from peeking its braod nose out the top of the bag to hiding in the depths of the bag.)

Then dad said, oh, I better put all the seed down the basement! So I realized no good could come of this.

So I went back in the garage and "found" the vole in the bag. Dad came in and asked where I had seen it. I said it's in the bag. What bag? This bag. This bag? (pointing at one of twenty on the floor).

No, this (bright yellow rustling) bag I am holding. How'd it get in there? It was in there. But you said the vole was scurrying along the rail. Yes, (pointing at the garage door track) That rail.

What rail? (looking at the work bench) That rail (I said, shaking the bag with the poor vole in it, wagging my finger at the door track)

How in the world did the vole get in the bag from being up on the rail? I don't know, you put it up there! 'The Vole? No, the bag! It obviously didn't work. See, (showing him the bag) It chewed through here.

Okay, how do we get rid of it? (Certainly not like my sister, I thought, who went to buy a no-kill trap for a mouse, only to have her 3y/o announce they had a rabbit.  An they were going to kill it...)

I don't know, Dad, I am not going to kill it, it probably has babies. What are you going to do? Put it out back. How are you going to get it out? I am not.

We put the bag outside. Assuming Mom hasn't already had Dad take some secret drastic action I am thinking of putting it in the woods.

Any suggestions? Is de-wooding in NJ safe this time of year? Can I keep it in a tank instead? Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 06:54, 4 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I did a search for "wild animal rescue NJ" and it lead me to this site which is in NJ. You'll probably be able to get all the info you need from them.  Dismas |(talk) 07:06, 4 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, if you have some honeycombs and wine (and a hammer large rock, for historical accuracy :) ) you can plant this sack's seed along the edge of your property. Pliny the Elder may (or may not) have described this as the augurium arvicolinium. :) Wnt (talk) 12:48, 4 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Also to consider; getting this vole out may be possible, but how do you keep more from getting in? I'd imagine your yard is redolent with rodents of all types, and a few of them are going to move in to escape the snakes and feral cats from your neighborhood.  In my experience, they'll just keep coming back (trying to find and fill all the holes where they can sneak in is a Sysiphian task, given that a) they can squeeze through a hole the size of a nickel and b) even so, they can chew through concrete and steel.  The only thing that has worked for me is to keep a relatively constant supply of those little rat poison bags in the corners of the basement and garage (D-Con works well).  They eat the poison and tend to wander off looking for water (apparently the poison makes them thirsty) and so die somewhere else, and not your house.  The first 2-3 years I lived in my house I had a real problem with mice/voles/feral hamsters/etc. in my garage and crawlspace, as evidenced by the mouse turds that collected everywhere.  I started using the poison as recommended by the nice man at Home Depot.  Since then (about 10 years ago), I haven't had any more problems, and I have only once in ten years had a dead mouse to remove from my crawlspace (trust me, you KNOW when one dies inside.  Kinda unmistakable in an olfactory sort of way) otherwise, I've been rodent free.  I know they are getting in and eating the poison, because I replace the little bags every few months as they get chewed through, but a) they aren't living in my house (because there's no poop) and b) they aren't dieing in my house (because there's no stinky mummified mouse corpses), though they are still getting in because they are eating the poison.  If the knowledge that they are dieing is too much for you, I suggest you get used to the idea that you've got free-range voles as household pets, because in my experience, that's what'll happen.  -- Jayron  32  13:06, 4 March 2014 (UTC)


 * The alternative to keeping them out by securing the perimeter is to make sure there is plenty of food and shelter outside the house, so they'll be less likely to seek ways into the garage. Similar to having a squirrel feeder to keep squirrels away from a bird feeder, you could leave some trays of birdseed on the ground for voles (also would attract ground-feeding birds). Of course, at that point, it may turn into a hawk feeder... Otherwise, store garage/outbuilding grain products in plastic 5-gallon buckets with screw or snap lids (not impervious to rodents, but much more deterrent). I've never kept a vole as a pet, but I suspect it would work fine, there is even anecdotal evidence that other people do it . Keep in mind this may be illegal (e.g. it is illegal in USA to catch a wild cardinal and keep it as a pet), and there may be some disease risks. I'm not sure if e.g. hantavirus infects voles in your area, but it's worth at least mentioning.  SemanticMantis (talk) 16:06, 4 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks, all. I called the animal rescue number Dismas gave, but they answer with a machine saying to leave a message if you have an orphaned baby. All I know for sure is they have a vole in a bag of seeds which I suspect may be its nest, and which I suspect might have babies.  My parents don't normally get rodents, as they do have plenty of food and nesting sources outside.  Over 40 years they've had a few years of squirrels in the attic, fixed by lining the walls with wire mesh, overnight visits from chipmunks who got locked in the garage when the door was shut behind them, and for two years this vole and its relatives, which had been assumed to be field mice.  The yard on the order of an acre is riddled with chipmunks and home to half a dozen squirrels on average, but these never come in the house intentionally.


 * My main concern is getting rid of it humanely. I did already think of hantavirus and the like.  The biggest problem from my viewpoint is that if it comes back, Mom will want to get glue traps.  Although I know voles are basically nature's idea of hors d'oeuvres, I can abide natural deaths, but not murder for mere aesthetic purposes.  I have convinced them to leave the bag with the seed and vole outside till I visit on the weekend, when the snow should have melted.  I think, ironically enough, given Wnt's suggestion of pagan sacrifice, I will simply dump the contents of the bag by the corner of the fence where there's plenty of cover and an abandonned groundhog hole, as well as access to the neighbor's woodpile.  I'll convince them it's their fault the vole came in since they've been storing seed on the floor for years, and take the seed and hang it by hooks from the roof of the back yard shed. μηδείς (talk) 18:42, 4 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Is it going to be vulnerable to attacks from cats and dogs where you left it ? If so, you could build a little enclosure around the bag with chicken wire.  Hopefully the holes are large enough for the vole to get through but not cats.  In summer, snakes might also be a concern, since they can probably get through.  You could use twist ties to tie the chicken wire into a cube shape, and stake it to the ground with tent stakes. StuRat (talk) 20:10, 4 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Definitely not dogs, but maybe cats. The yard is fenced. Most people keep their cats inside.  The neighbors had two cats which we would chase off when we saw them, but I think they got rid of them as their daughter's allergic.  The big threat right now is my father, who can't see why there's a good bag of bluegrass seed out on the back porch.  He thinks maybe the vole is gone, so he can retrieve his seed.  I told him maybe so, but it doesn't hurt to wait till friday to bring it in, and I'll buy him a new bag.  On the off chance it has pups I'd rather it be disturbed as little as possible.  It's a paper bag of one or two pounds of seed, in a doubled light plastic shopping bag, up against the side of the house, on an open but roofed porch.  If the vole's still there on friday I will build it a little pile from sassafras logs that were left on the ground when a small tree was cut down.  That was my sister's advice, turns out she trapped and weighed voles as a lab assistant as an undegrad, which I didn't know.  It may already be back in the garage for all I know, but I have convinced them not to disturb it for now.  Dad said there's no more seed in the garage. μηδείς (talk) 20:35, 4 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I had grass seed in the basement, and mice got to it, so I vole-heartedly agree that it's an attractive nuisance. I think it needs to be stored in a container impenetrable to rodents, like those huge tin cans popcorn comes in at Christmas. StuRat (talk) 21:44, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Sci-fi detective story
Does anyone remember a science-fiction (well, construing the term broadly) story that involved a computer that read the last words of (possibly) Dutch Schultz, and took on the gangster's personality? One more clue: The following bit of children's verse features prominently, though I don't remember in exactly what way: F for fig, and J for jig, and N for knucklebones J for John the Waterman, and S for sack of stones It's supposed to be an acrostic for finis. Any help? --Trovatore (talk) 07:59, 4 March 2014 (UTC)


 * A search at books.google.com for "figs jigs knucklebones" found "The 13 crimes of science fiction", an out-of-print collection of 13 stories, edited by Isaac Asimov, Martin Harry Greenberg, and Charles G. Waugh (see here), and another hit in "The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction, Band 46" from 1974. "The 13 Crimes" apparently contains the following stories:
 * The Detweiler Boy by Tom Reamy
 * The Ipswich Phial by Randall Garrett
 * Second Game by Charles V. De Vet & Katherine MacLean
 * The Ceaseless Stone by Avram Davidson
 * Coup de Grace by Jack Vance
 * The Green Car by William F. Temple
 * War Game by Philip K. Dick
 * The Singing Bell by Isaac Asimov
 * ARM by Larry Niven
 * Mouthpiece by Edward Wellen
 * Time Exposures by Wilson Tucker
 * How-2 by Clifford D. Simak
 * Time in Advance by William Tenn
 * Does any of these titles ring a bell? —Tobias Bergemann (talk) 08:53, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I skimmed down your list quickly and with the last entry, since "bell" was just to the right and down from "William", thought "I wonder how William Tell was as an author!". Dismas |(talk) 09:02, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I think Mouthpiece by Edward Wellen is what you were looking for:
 * Edward Wellen’s “Mouthpiece” first saw print in the pages of Fantasy & Science Fiction Magazine’s February 1974′s issue. Most of the stories I’ve read by Edward Wellen tend to be focused on the workings of the human mind, and this one is no exception. This one fictionalizes a fascinating historical curiosity regarding the final hours of “Dutch” Schultz and takes it just that bit farther – into artificial intelligence – leaving us pondering the nature of personality, memory and thought. It’s also a great little mystery to boot! (Review of Sci-Fi Private Eye edited by Isaac Asimov and Martin H. Greenberg)
 * —Tobias Bergemann (talk) 09:10, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks, y'all Tobias! I think you've cracked the case.  Pity that book is out of print.  Or maybe good for me &mdash; I have it somewhere, if I can find it; maybe it's a collectors' item. --Trovatore (talk) 20:23, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
 * That Wellen story (actually a short novel, almost seventy pages long, and divided into twenty chapters) is also included in The Mammoth Book of Fantastic Science Fiction – Short Novels of the 1970s, again edited by Asimov, Greenberg and Waugh and published in 1992 by Carroll & Graf (ISBN 0-88184-795-X). This should be somewhat easier to find. I actually own this book and have it now in front of me, but I had completely forgotten about Wellen's novel. Anyway, The Mammoth Book of Fantastic Science Fiction also includes Robert Silverberg's Born with the Dead (Nebula award 1975), Donald Kingsbury's novella The Moon Goddess and the Son (later expanded into a novel of the same title), Joan D. Vinge's Tin Soldier, Larry Niven's ARM, John Varley's The Persistence of Vision (Hugo and Nebula awards 1979), Poul Anderson's The Queen of Air and Darkness (Hugo Award for Best Novella and Locus Award for Best Short Story in 1972, Nebula Award for Best Novelette in 1971), and three short novels/novellas by Frederick Pohl (In the Problem Pit), Norman Spinrad (Riding the Torch), and Gordon R. Dickson (The Monster and the Maiden). — Tobias Bergemann (talk) 22:10, 4 March 2014 (UTC)