Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2014 September 16

= September 16 =

Do Eastern Orthodox kids go trick-or-treating with their Western Christian counterparts?
So, do they go trick-or-treating or not? 71.79.234.132 (talk) 01:52, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Googling Eastern Orthodox Halloween provides a long list of screeds about how trick-or-treating and other aspects of modern Halloween are satanic/neo-pagan attempts at corrupting Eastern Orthodox kids. People don't usually get this worked up over something not happening, so my guess is that E-O kids in countries that traditionally do the trick-or-treat thing do take part, but to the chagrin of the staunch faithful. My understanding is that trick-or-treating is not common outside of the Anglosphere; trick-or-treating more-or-less backs that up, but notes that it's spreading. Matt Deres (talk) 02:38, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Here in Russia, the Orthodox Church officially views Halloween as a "western form of Devil-worship". --Ghirla-трёп- 10:17, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * My neighbor (in the United States) is a fairly devout Greek Orthodox lady who was born and raised in Greece, yet she puts up Halloween decorations each year, and I'm sure that her (U.S.-born) children trick-or-treated when they were younger, so the animus toward Halloween cannot be universal in the U.S. Greek Orthodox Church. Marco polo (talk) 13:32, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Matt's bit about "modern" is crucial; the Orthodox Church celebrates All Saints' Day as well (although months away from 1 November), so by definition they have to have an All Hallows' Eve. Clearly they're objecting to the paganisation of modern secular society's celebration of the day.  Nyttend (talk) 20:54, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * It's the christianisation of ancient pagan festivals that gets my goat. DuncanHill (talk) 21:36, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * It's not a joke. The pagan symbols and rituals about Halloween, Christmas, Easter, etc. are way much older than the "sanitized" (Christian) versions of those holidays. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:06, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * In Russia, Greece, Bulgaria, etc., was there a tradition of pagan influence before comparatively recent Westernisation? Did anyone dress up, trick-or-treat, or engage in any other Celtic practices of the sort?  In Orthodox regions, the Christian celebration has historically been completely unrelated, unlike in much of Western Europe, so in those regions there hasn't been any Christianisation of an ancient 31 October pagan festival.  Nyttend (talk) 23:25, 16 September 2014 (UTC)


 * The czars' collection of Easter Fabergé eggs are a pagan symbol of rebirth, later merged with the Christ resurrection story. StuRat (talk) 02:58, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

The title of this section implies that the practice is a Christian one in western countries. In Australia, it's not a Christian practice at all. It didn't exist when I was a kid 50 years ago. It has developed as a result of American influence on our culture. Aussie kids see it in American TV shows and want to copy it. Anything for free lollies, eh? This means there's nothing pagan about it either. No religious connection at all. Just kids annoying old farts like me. We have Eastern Orthodox people in our country too. I assume their kids do it too, as a non-religious activity. HiLo48 (talk) 03:37, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I have known American Christians of some denominations or individual congregations who would not do Halloween for the very reason that it was pagan, devil-worship. Some of them, so their kids would not feel culturally deprived, would have a "costume party" with no mention of Halloween as such. And I also once knew someone who claimed to be a witch, and who took Halloween off as a religious holiday. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:04, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Is Halloween "Christian" in any realistic way? I don't think so. I raised my sons of mixed religious ancestry as Jews, and we never had a trace of Christmas or Easter in our home. But Halloween was always a treasured secular holiday, with its harmless flirtation with themes of death and the occult. Religious dogmatists of all stripes hate the day. Normal, open minded people enjoy it. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  05:42, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes and no. Check out its history in Halloween. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:46, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Scottish independence
Why do Westminster conservatives oppose Scottish independence? It seems that independence would immediately give the Conservative Party an enormous electoral advantage in the continuing UK. --50.46.159.94 (talk) 03:04, 16 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Because they're not just Conservative, they are Conservative and Unionist. Since the latter part of the 19th Century they have absorbed Unionist portions of other parties, initially in response to calls for Irish Home Rule. DuncanHill (talk) 03:14, 16 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Also, partisan advantage is apparently not their only concern. I think that many of them are genuinely distressed at the prospect of the country that they love breaking apart. Marco polo (talk) 13:29, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Is Scotland generally more supportive of Labour than are EnglandandWalesandNI as a whole? Nyttend (talk) 23:26, 16 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes. (Northern Ireland doesn't really figure in this, as it has no MPs from any of the big 3 parties). A couple of articles with mpre background - in the New Statesman & on the BBC. If the last general election had not included Scotland, the Tories would have had a majority in the Commons. DuncanHill (talk) 00:02, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I think (not got references to hand) that Scottish constituencies tend to have smaller populations than English ones, you get more MPs for a given vote in Scotland than in England. DuncanHill (talk) 00:16, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah, here we are - "The average size of constituencies in Wales is 56,628 and in Scotland 65,475, whereas the average size in England is 71,858" according to this blog from LSE. DuncanHill (talk) 00:28, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
 * My guess Scotland is more Labour in a reaction to the south of England being more Conservative. If it gets independence I would not be surprised if it drops that fairly quickly. As Marco Polo above says many in the rest of Britain are genuinely distressed at the idea of a split, and it really is against the basis of Conservatism. I though Cameron's last appeal was very good and it might sway some voters it was good and positive. (Though I also thought it sounded very like Jack Nicholson in Mars Attacks "Why Can't We All Just Get Along?" ;-) Dmcq (talk) 09:17, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Scotland currently has 59 constituencies in the Westminster parliament. Only one of those is represented by a Conservative MP. The map at Scottish_Westminster_constituencies_from_2005 is misleading: it makes all the parties look stronger than they are, except Labour, which swept up so many smaller, densely populated urban seats, so scroll down a little to the eye-popping list, which shows just how much the Westminster Conservatives stand to gain if Scotland votes Yes... except for the small fact that Scotland going its own way is totally against the party's principles. Nice to see politicians taking a stance that is not based on self-interest for once. Ed Milliband must be terrified of a Yes vote. --Dweller (talk) 09:23, 17 September 2014 (UTC)


 * "Good and positive", Dmcq? "If you leave the Union now, you will never be allowed back in" doesn't sound particularly positive to me.  More spiteful and fear-inducing, if anything.  History has a way of confounding the predictions of experts, and Cameron is in no position to make such a statement.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  10:05, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Positive as in balance, not that all his speech just said positive things and ignored anything negative. That would have been just silly for a final speech giving their points. Dmcq (talk) 10:36, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Scotland was more Conservative than England in 1950 but returned only one Conservative MP at the last election. Some blame Margaret Thatcher's introduction of the "Poll Tax" a year earlier in Scotland than anywhere else for putting the nail in the coffin. See Scottish independence: how the Tories became pariahs. Personally, I blame Mel Gibson and his Braveheart tosh.  Alansplodge (talk) 17:02, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
 * 1950 is a long time ago - 64 years. Go back a similar amount from 1950 and you'll see the Liberals winning a sizable majority in the Westminster parliament. Over such a long period, parties and the electorate change considerably. --Dweller (talk) 09:14, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
 * A week is a long time in politics. DuncanHill (talk) 12:50, 18 September 2014 (UTC)