Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2014 September 22

= September 22 =

Historically speaking, what did people with gender dysphoria do before the sex reassignment surgery was ever performed?
Did they just live as members of the other sex? Or did they unhappily accept their birth sex? Did they attempt to remove their external sex organs because they thought it was not theirs? 71.79.234.132 (talk) 04:18, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
 * If Kathoeys, Hijras, and other Third gender individuals are any indication, they would at least try to live as their desired sex, if not become eunuchs. I've previously been given the impression that Two-Spirit peoples would apparently figure that being a man in a woman's body or a woman in a man's body just meant double the fun.  Elegabalus offered a lot of money to any doctor who could turn him into a woman. Ian.thomson (talk) 04:32, 22 September 2014 (UTC)


 * If you look up berdache and shamanism, you will see there is a phenomenon among tribal peoples where certain people going through puberty become "sick" (we would say acutely depressed) and often with the consultation of an elder shaman (who may not himself be transgender, but who has been taught the phenomenon) will emerge as the opposite gender after some transitional period. This is known throughout Siberia and North America.  The transformed person doesn't have to become a shaman himself, sometimes they simply take up the opposite gender role and often shack up with someone of their own sex but live as husband and wife.  I don't think we have an article, but among the indigenous Mexicans until today there is the concept of a mallate who is a man who is respected and treated as a heterosexual who has an effeminate/transgender homosexual "wife".  I have met some myself.  One relevant source would be Studies in Siberian Shamanism by Henry N. Michael, although I am not sure if that's the book that tells of the Siberians who change sex role, but who don't become shamans, and simply live as the opposite sex in a normal two-person couple. μηδείς (talk) 17:54, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Possibly related: Enaree, Galli, and Gala. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:03, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
 * So... are there any indigenous Western European populations that recognize a third-gender or have some sort of special status for third-gendered individuals? 71.79.234.132 (talk) 18:46, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
 * There are homosexual and trans Roman Emperors, but Christianity seems mostly to have pushed that underground. See Hadrian, Calligula, Heliogabalus, Homosexuality in ancient Rome, Homosexuality in ancient Greece and Bog body, the last of which may in some case involve sacrificed/ritually executed homosexuals.  See also, Triple Goddess, Marija Gimbutas, Dama de Elche, Ganymede for other interesting facts and speculation on the rule of females and the place of male homosexuality in the West before Christianity. μηδείς (talk) 20:22, 23 September 2014 (UTC)


 * You may be interested in Transgender History: Into the Modern Age (1700s - 1932) by Mercedes Allen which highlights some examples such as Queen Christina of Sweden who abdicated and took on a male persona as "Count Dohna." Less happily, Herculine Barbin who in 1860 "is studied by her doctor, who discovers that the intersexed woman has a small penis, with testicles inside her body. Barbin is declared legally male against her wishes, becomes the subject of much scandal for having previously taught in a girl's school, moves to Paris but continues to live in poverty, and ultimately commits suicide in 1868." Alansplodge (talk) 12:35, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

"Duke of Half-"
In several articles about 14th/15th century Polish noblemen, they are described as "Duke of half-placename". For example, Henry V of Iron, is said to be "Duke of Duke of half-Głogów, and ... Duke of half-Ścinawa"; Konrad VII the White is described somewhat confusingly as "sole Duke of half of Ścinawa"; Bolko II the Small is "Duke over half of Brzeg and Oława from 1358 ... and Duke over half of Głogów and Ścinawa".

Does anyone know what is meant by this? Was there another duke of the other half? Was it that they only laid claim/controlled one half? Was being "Duke of half-placename" an actual contemporary title? Or is this just a bad translation, that would benefit from a better explanation? Sotakeit (talk) 14:10, 22 September 2014 (UTC)


 * See Duchy of Głogów for an explanation. Under the Polish hereditary system at the time, the lands were partitioned between claimants, meaning duchies and fiefs split, reunited, and attached themselves to other lands as various births, marriages and deaths took place. Mogism (talk) 14:20, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Such "splits" occur in other systems as well. See Partible inheritance, Gavelkind, Salic patrimony, Abeyance, etc.  Such systems generally predate primogeniture systems.  The Lord Great Chamberlain office in the United Kingdom is one such subdivided hereditary office.  There are currently 14 people with some share of the office, ranging in portion from 1/2 ownership down to 1/100 ownership.  This is also why so many Germanic duchies ended up excessively hyphenated.  The duchies got split and split again into smaller and smaller portions, which is why we get duchies like the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld and Saxe-Coburg-Eisenach.  -- Jayron  32  14:30, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

I've just been re-reading Norbert Elias' opus wherein he describes how the European economy based on land ownership made such partitioning inevitable and how the gradual change to a money-based economy led to the eventual reunification of the resulting bits - but often the wrong bits. John C Kay (talk) 01:32, 26 September 2014 (UTC)