Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2014 September 3

= September 3 =

A question of the way we approach gender equality or equity
What i am about to write concerns a delicate issue here in the United States; the gender equality movement. I would like to state first and foremost that i have no anger nor opposition towards the movement as a whole, which includes LGBTQ issues. Any sentence that i may write below that gives the impression that i harbor any ill thoughts toward this movement is not intentional, and should hopefully not be taken offensively. If anything, my words may be ignorant, but not hate filled. I will also try to be as short as i can, although this is a complex issue which requires explanation.

With this out of the way, I find some problems with the way in which many groups operate, whose goal is gender equality, or gender equity. At my Alma Mater, there is a room which holds an organization dedicated to gender equality, which includes lesbian/bi/transexual/etc rights and equality. On an annual basis, they hold a double event known as the "Lavender Graduation". In such an event, members of the LGBTQ community are invited to partake in a ceremony celebrating their graduation, where "allies" (those who show their approval and friendship to said community) show up and give their support and well wishing. After this event, during the University-wide celebration that is graduation, the members of the LGBTQ community are given the privilege to wear lavender graduation gowns, to indicate their membership in said community. All other participants must wear black.

What I find odd about these proceedings is that i feel it works AGAINST gender equality, very likely unintentionally. My reasoning follows. If we are to work towards an air of equality for all people, awareness surely needs to be addressed. However, equality means that we treat all people the same, where equity means we give all people the same opportunity... by means of different treatment in hopes to provide this opportunity. I mention both equality and equity because which word is chosen may affect how a person tries to help in this situation. In the case of equality..... i REALLY don't see lavender graduation as equal. It is, in fact, a case of the movement going unreasonably too far.

Let me play devils advocate to prove my point. If Lesbians, Gays, etc.... should be allowed to wear lavender, then why not allow heterosexuals to wear blue? What the hell, lets have white people wear white and black people wear black! Transgender could wear yellow, and there are a million ways we could divide up the colors of the rainbow to give light to each persons status or sexual orientation or life choices. My point is this: By giving homosexual, transgender, etc people lavender, we are setting them APART from the rest of the crowd. The lavender graduation almost implies that a LGBTQ person has actually done more work and achieved something higher than a heterosexual person, and that this work should be recognized. I think this is wrong. If we wish to give equality, then every person, regardless of their beliefs etc should think "This is Joe, he is many things, one of which is a homosexual. I may or may not agree with this way of life, but i respect him as a person!". Should not every graduate wear black, if we are all equal people in spirit? Even if we look at equity and not equality, how does placing these people in different colored gowns assist them in being equals? Instead it places them on a pedestal... possibly to even be attacked for such by those that are not informed. I hope i have been clear enough in my logic and explanation, without writing too much. Now i ask my question.

My question is.... is there any place in which my way of thought is shown? I have looked at the following articles:

Gender_equality

Gender_inequality_in_the_United_States

... as awkward as this is to say, there is no "opposition" or "controversy" related section. I have never encountered any group thus far that has this opinion, even though anthropology has shown from historical situations that people can have the best of intentions and still not do things right. Is there any group, or anywhere where my logic is shown? Am i the only one? Is my idea terribly flawed and wrong? I would Google this but i have no idea what search terms to associate with such a complicated issue. Please help.

PS: This is not a question encouraging uncontrolled debate. I want to know whether my idea exists anywhere in real life or on the internet, and if my thoughts are in error somehow.

Thank you very much! 216.173.144.188 (talk) 14:24, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * The question of separatism vs. integration has been an issue for a number of groups over a number of decades, from at least Marcus Garvey's time to the present... AnonMoos (talk) 14:49, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Thank you AnonMoos, I do wonder why i never see anyone argue my side of the coin, if it is such a common debate across the decades. I think almost everyone in the office i mentioned would promote the Lavender Graduation. Maybe those who feel as i do are afraid to speak up, or most people don't think about the issue, and accept the position of the Office of Gender Equality without challenge, believing them to be the "experts" ?


 * 216.173.144.188 (talk) 05:04, 4 September 2014 (UTC)


 * "The lavender graduation almost implies that a LGBTQ person has actually done more work and achieved something higher than a heterosexual person" - But they have! They didn't quit and graduated despite all the terrible oppression and discrimination a straight white male person isn't subject to... or something. Asmrulz (talk) 20:26, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Asmrulz, you have an extremely powerful point. Although i disagree with this specific ceremony, i suppose i must agree with you that these people face challenges above and beyond the other students, and i respect them for this. Thank you for reinforcing that point.
 * 216.173.144.188 (talk) 05:07, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind, the kids who face the least discrimination are naturally the most popular. Managing high school popularity is a full-time job in itself. Those who manage to get (legit) straight As while also captaining the team, attending every party and maintaining a relationship with (presumably) the school's most popular (possibly pregnant, possibly yours) girl also deserve respect. Getting to math class bruised, hungover and wondering why everyone wants you isn't much easier than attending biology after a weekend of laying around wondering why nobody does. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:47, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I meant that tongue-in-cheek. I'm not into this stuff Asmrulz (talk) 18:41, 4 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Affirmative action, Affirmative action in the United States, and Reverse discrimination contain quite a reasonable discussion and assessment of the issue, together with some useful reading lists. I wish I could say the same about Empowerment, which (as it stands) is a dreadful article, despite being the one which is (theoretically) the closest match to your question. Tevildo (talk) 21:31, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Your viewpoint is very common across the political spectrum. See identity politics, especially the "Debates and criticism" section.  Similar debates occur in feminism (should feminists emphasize sameness, or difference?) and multiculturalism (is assimilation better than encouraging multiculturalism?)  --Bowlhover (talk) 22:22, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * You should not assume that all gay people support the idea of exclusive rights to lavender gowns. As a gay man (and one with a history of activism), I think it is a mistake and a bit of an embarrassment. It is a small but very visible privilege, and I think it is counterproductive and wrong to demand privilege as opposed to equality. On the other hand, I don't see a problem with and am supportive of the LGBT graduation event that takes place before the formal graduation.  There is presumably no reason why African American students, or students who play football, or religious Christian students couldn't hold their own specific event before the formal graduation and no reason why LGBT students who want such an event shouldn't have one.  Marco polo (talk) 18:36, 4 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Are you responding to me, or to the OP? I just said the OP's opinion is very common across the political spectrum (by which I meant that many gays, anti-gays, liberals, conservatives, etc. hold it), which answers his question of whether anyone else has expressed his opinion.  --Bowlhover (talk) 20:46, 4 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Marco, very important point and I'm glad you were able to leave your thoughts! Unfortunately, I think that the act of standing out like this also leads some people to believe ALL homosexuals want this. Of course, those who might perceive this more likely don't know many LGBTQ people personally. It is an unfortunate reality especially given the stereotype of really flamboyant homosexual men. Just another valid argument on this "two sides of the coin" issue.
 * 216.173.144.188 (talk) 09:11, 5 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Does graduation mean something different where you are? For me graduation was an academic achievement. I see absolutely no point in having anything to do with sex, race, religion, how fat one is, whether one is a paraplegic etc etc in such a ceremony. Dmcq (talk) 08:36, 5 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Dmcq, yes this is also an unfortunate reality today. I agree it should be about academic achievement. A good point on the side for allowing "Lavender Graduation" is that we would then need to erase any other specific mention of a student's race, nationality, etc. I hate to add this complexity, but at my university they also recognize some international students in a special way. Chinese students wear a graduation sash that resembles the Chinese flag, for instance. If i am to argue for some reason that Lavender Graduation be removed, at least in the official graduation and allowing the event beforehand, some will argue that all the sashes should be removed.... in the extreme case i see a possibility of removing Valedictorian, Salutatorian, etc. It is a really complicated issue!
 * 216.173.144.188 (talk) 09:20, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I thank you all for your replies in this. This is a very complicated issue and all the points brought up from various perspectives here has really helped me to better understand the underpinnings of all this. Thanks to everyone who has contributed thus far! 216.173.144.188 (talk) 10:00, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Albinia Lucy Cust Wherry (1857–1929)
Hello. Whenever I use a source, I attempt to evaluate it for authority, check their qualifications, etc. Very rarely, I run into a brick wall. This is the current state of affairs that has brought me to the edge of madness, and to this board. Aside from this, I cannot find anything useful about this person! I have a feeling there is a lot more out there on her, but I need help finding the info. I would appreciate any help. Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 19:35, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I found a bit more about her that might help a researcher uncover additional bio details: "She was the wife of George Edward Wherry, Honorary Fellow of Downing College, Cambridge, and the daughter of Robert Needham Cust and Maria Adelaide Hobart." Since she was such a prolific writer, there must be more info about her somewhere. Viriditas (talk) 19:46, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Google Scholar finds this: "Mr Wherry, a widower, was a surgeon specialising on the eye, and had married a Miss Albinia Lucy Cust, a hospital ..." from Sherrington, Carr ER. "Charles Scott Sherrington (1857-1952)." Notes and records of the Royal Society of London (1975): 45-63. Whether the source reveals much more, I've no idea. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:51, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Probably not RS, but DoB etc here: AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:58, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree with AndyTheGrump about using peerage.com as a source, but I have verified the birth and death information that appears there in the source that the website cites, which is Burke's Peerage, which is a reliable source. - Nunh-huh 20:50, 5 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Genealogical details won't be of much use in determining reliability, but may help provide biographical sources.


 * Our article on her father is here. Her great-grandfather |George Hobart was 3rd Earl of Buckinghamshire. Her great-grandfather Francis Needham was 1st Earl of Kilmorey. Her great-grandfather Sir Brownlow Cust was 1st Baron Brownlow of Belton. Her great-grandmother Albinia Bertie was granddaughter of Robert Bertie, 1st Duke of Ancaster and Kesteven. - Nunh-huh 22:28, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for taking the time to create and upload the chart. I will use this as a starting point. Viriditas (talk) 23:35, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I've updated the chart because I've found that we have an article on another ancestor, Sarah (Kirby) Trimmer - Nunh-huh 20:57, 5 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Does anyone have access to The Albinia Book (1929)? Why was there this very long tradition of naming daughters after Albinia Cecil, daughter of Edward Cecil, 1st Viscount Wimbledon? Viriditas (talk) 23:48, 3 September 2014 (UTC)