Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2014 September 7

= September 7 =

Tiye
From earliest times Tiye, wife of Amenhotep III, mother of Ahkenaton and grandmother of Tutankhanmen has been known to have been of Nubian descent. Why has RACISM caused you to deny that info when many Black Jewish Ethiopians, i.e.. Nubians, have historically resided there and migrated there?

Why are you afraid to define Africans as they are? The fact that many intermarried with Semites who migrated into the region should not cause history to become a "bunch of lies"! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.38.233.45 (talk) 03:39, 7 September 2014 (UTC)


 * We have no interest in polemics. Take it somewhere else, please. IBE (talk) 05:05, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Ancient Egyptian race controversy, Black Egyptian hypothesis, Population history of Egypt. 75.41.109.190 (talk) 05:13, 7 September 2014 (UTC)


 * "Others believe that Tiye's features and dark skin as represented in artwork from the time indicate sub-Saharan African origins. This matter is hotly debated. It is a dispute not likely to be settled in the near future". Queen Tiye: A Biography by Megaera Lorenz Alansplodge (talk) 11:38, 7 September 2014 (UTC)


 * There is no "dark skin". It's the natural colour of the wood from which the sculpture is made. The effect comes from the fact that Egyptians at this time had the habit of "highlighting" parts of the face (painting in eyebrows and lips for example), but leaving the main features unpainted. Because there is colour on the sculpture, we read the colour of the wood as a skin tone, which we would not do if the sculpture were completely unpainted, like marble or bronze statues. We wouldn't use this as evidence that Winston Churchill was black, or this  as evidence that Nelson Mandela was white. But this File:TutankhamunBerlin.jpg makes Tutankhamun look positively anaemic, because the highlighting of the brows and lips leads us to read the plaster as his skin-colour. It's the same with the Tiye sculpture, which is made from a dark yew heartwood. Incidentally, I know of no evidence that Tiye was "known to have been of Nubian descent" from "the earliest times" or at any time. Why do you think that Nubians were "Jewish"? Paul B (talk) 11:12, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

CIA and knowledge of covert action
When the CIA was involved in Latin America during the "dirty war", how many people within the organisation would have been aware of their activities? Have ordinary analysts come out and said they were unaware of what was going on? Have any said that they were appalled (whether aware or not)? IBE (talk) 05:14, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know the answer to this question (intelligence agencies by definition operate "in the shadows"), but in pretty much all intel agencies, people are made aware of secrets on a "need to know" basis. Even if you have top-secret clearance, you'll raise alarm bells if you start accessing stuff unrelated to your own area. Of course, this can make it hard for an operative to "join the dots". Ergo, after 9/11, the restrictions on what info an operative could access were loosened. The result was Chelsea Manning's ability to obtain and leak vast quantities of stuff unrelated to his particular intelligence role.
 * So in a nutshell, only those who were deemed to have a genuine need to know would have been aware. And even long after someone has retired, I presume there may be federal laws prohibiting discussing what you did during your time in the agency - or potentially, even merely revealing the fact that you've worked there. Woe betide those who break these rules - just look at the aggression in the US's pursuit of Edward Snowden. Perhaps others may have more to suggest to the OP? 137.147.47.234 (talk) 12:14, 7 September 2014 (UTC)


 * If you haven't already, you might check out CIA activities in the Americas. There are specific articles for specific Latin American countries there, but we'll always lack answers. Oddly enough, the one about Cuba is completely redlinked. Yes, that Cuba. Guess we don't "need to know". InedibleHulk (talk) 12:40, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Apparently, it did exist once, but was deleted (by a guy named GorillaWarfare, no less) for being plagiarism. He was nice enough to say where it was copied from. Might be a place to look (if you consider Cuba Latin American). InedibleHulk (talk) 12:45, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Is there an argument of which I'm not aware that Cuba is not Latin American? John M Baker (talk) 15:00, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I've known some people to separate the Carribean from Central America (which they call Latin America). Personally, I find it "Latin American". The article I linked sets apart the Caribbean. Latin America seems OK with counting Cuba. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:13, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
 * One thing to remember about "need to know" covert activities. Lots of people may know or suspect that something is going on, and yet not know exactly what is going on.  The typical agent may only know a small compartmentalized part of any action (the part that they "need to know" to do their job) ... one little piece of the larger puzzle.   Only a few higher-ups may have known what the entire puzzle looked like. Blueboar (talk) 20:37, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Pocahontas
This 1616 engraving of Pocahontas shows her as an old woman, even though she died at age 21. There are a few other depictions of her in our article, all showing her with European features, but otherwise with very different physical characteristics and clothing. By contrast this painting shows her with very Asian features, to the extent of resembling a modern Chinese girl. Which depiction, if any, is plausible? Do historians know what an average 18 year old woman from Pocahontas' tribe would have looked like? --Bowlhover (talk) 07:36, 7 September 2014 (UTC)


 * She doesn't look old to me there, just somewhat harshly-featured. Anyway, artists in northern Europe at that time often had zero or extremely little experience in encountering individuals of other races, which could lead to inconsistent results.  To see some sketches of culturally-closely related peoples in North America (though not Pocahontas' exact tribe), see the John White illustrations... AnonMoos (talk) 12:40, 7 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I live in a Asian-majority community that also has a reasonable Native American population and there is a distinct similarity between the two populations in terms of appearance. This of course is an opinion, but a common one if you google it. Point being, Pocahontas could have looked "Asian" insofar that any Native could. (You could also say that Asians look like Natives.) Mingmingla (talk) 17:41, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
 * American Natives share genes with and are almost certainly descended from Siberians, so in a very real sense they are Asian. (The Russians Are Coming, the Russians Are Coming! - Nope, settle down.  They arrived thousands of years ago.) --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:11, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The second image looks like some male fantasy of how Indian women looked. There are plenty of images that supposedly show how she looked, Wm. Sheppard, Sedgeford, Richard Norris Brooke, File:Pocahontas gravure.jpg, File:Pocahontas001.jpg (colour) and Collective Biographies of Women. CBWeather, Talk, Seal meat for supper? 00:48, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
 * OK the "Sedgeford portrait" is absolutely not Pocahontas. The costumes are totally wrong for the period. It's just some painting with an "Indian-looking" woman in it that someone once decided might be Pocahontas. The only image with a claim to authenticity is the Van de Passe print, which was taken from a portrait. The other prints listed by CBWeather are just copies and adaptations of the Van de Passe print. There is the "Booton hall" portrait, held at the National Portrait Gallery in Washington, claimed to be the original from which the print is copied, but it's most likely a copy from the print. The only other image from the time is a generic print depicting Smith being "rescued" by Pocahontas, but that's obviously just a stereotyped portrayal of an American "native". Of course she isn't represented as an "old woman" in the print. The wide cheekbones are indicative of Amerindian identity e.g. this guy. After all, the difference between "European" and "Amerindian" features is not really dramatic. Paul B (talk) 13:22, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
 * FWIW (probably not much) I knew a Eurasian woman once who said people were always asking her if she was an Eskimo. Pais (talk) 18:03, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
 * It's probable that the engraver (possibly unconsciously) "smothed out" the features to some extent when copying the original portrait. The mouth in particular has rather stereotyped "wavy" lips. The features that the OP thought signified 'age', are probably those that reflect the genuinely distinctive aspects of her face - the angularity in particular. One reason for identifying the "Booton hall" portrait as a copy, is that her face is smoothed out and paled even more. It sure takes ten years off her, and much besides, including individuality . Paul B (talk) 19:11, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Interesting. Thanks everyone.  I never expected that a teenage Amerindian girl would look like what is to me a middle-aged European woman, which is why I found the "male fantasy" painting more credible.  I suppose that the engraving is the best idea we have of what she looked like.  --Bowlhover (talk) 08:20, 9 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I recommend a look at this project by a female artist http://www.people.com/article/beaty-standards-photoshop-esther-honig It really gives a sense HOW MUCH the idea of "how a (beautiful) woman should look like" differs between cultures, even today. --64.214.128.118 (talk) 14:36, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

positive and normative economics
define the positive and normative economics. cite the at least two examples of each economic ?


 * I've removed the shouting from the original posting. It appears to be a homework question.  We don't answer homework questions.  However, you may wish to read the articles on positive economics and normative economics. --65.94.51.64 (talk) 08:55, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Gift to the messenger by emperor Humayun
What did Humayun the second mughal emperor gave to the messenger as a gift, who bought the news that Akbar the future emperor is born??--Bhootrina (talk) 15:49, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
 * According to this text of uncertain provenance, "a small quantity of musk in [a] tiny box". However, according to our Humayun and Akbar articles, Akbar was born while Humayun and Hamida were in the fortress at Umerkot, and not while his father was actively campaigning. Tevildo (talk) 20:20, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
 * This text says "a small bottle of rose perfume", so the legend isn't unique to Sri Chinmoy (the author of the first text). There's not much else out there I can find immediately, though. Tevildo (talk) 00:19, 8 September 2014 (UTC)