Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2015 August 3

= August 3 =

How many country's currency have Braille and/or tactile features on them?
I could only find Canadian currency tactile feature. There's also the two commemorative euro coins[] celebrating the 200th anniversary of Louis Braille’s birth. Is there any other country in this club? My other car is a cadr (talk) 02:17, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Apparently US is catching up in 2020 with a new bill. A little late, but good for them.My other car is a cadr (talk) 02:22, 3 August 2015 (UTC)


 * India is planning it as well, but doesn't look as yet like they have produced any. -- Jayron 32 02:53, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Banknotes for currencies such as the Euro, Indian rupee, Chinese renminbi are sized differently for different denominations, which makes them quite easy to tell apart by touch (at least for an experienced user). US and Canada are two exceptions to this. Abecedare (talk) 03:22, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Euros are also printed with a thick, rough ink for the numbers, and some notes (old €200s and €500s, and all next generation notes) have additional tactile elements - see Euro banknotes. Smurrayinchester 08:36, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
 * South African banknotes have some tactile features - though not exactly Braille. https://www.resbank.co.za/AboutUs/PublicAwareness/Documents/A5%20all%20banknotes%20poster.pdf and http://www.sancb.org.za/faq/living-sight-loss 196.213.35.146 (talk) 07:03, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Swedish banknotes have different sizes for different denominations and intaglio print which you can use to tell the difference.  Sjö (talk) 09:14, 3 August 2015 (UTC)


 * In one country that I visited in 1975 – I think it was The Netherlands – notes could be distinguished by a number of textured dots. —Tamfang (talk) 08:27, 3 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Our Malaysian ringgit article doesn't say, but I believe Malaysian bank notes since the third series in 1996 have generally had braille. They also have other tacticle elements I believe primarily intended for security reasons but which would probably also help the sight impaired. See e.g., , . (I'm pretty sure I remembered reading stories at the time, but finding stories from circa 1996 in Malaysia for more obscure stuffc like this from a Google search is difficult.) Whether these elements ever suffered any flaws like for the Brunei dollar, I have no idea. Note that Malaysian bank notes are different sizes depending on the denomination, as with most currencies as Abecedare mentioned above. I found which mentions a Cash Test device used in the Euro to make it easier to determine the size of the bank notes. OT but that also includes some examples of portrait design bank notes which I've never seen before. Nil Einne (talk) 09:35, 3 August 2015 (UTC)


 * British notes and coins all vary in size in a predictable way which makes them recognisable by touch, as well as paper with a distinctive texture, and raised print. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:06, 3 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I found Australian banknotes about to change thanks to a 13-year-old boy who campaigned for a year to have a tactile feature added. Also a website that Wikipedia won't allow me to link to (but search "Banknotes for the visually impaired") which states: "The Bank of England has this to say about Braille on notes: '…on the advice of The Royal Institute for the Blind the bank has not included this because very few blind people now read Braille; it is also regarded as a feature that may well wear out over the life of a banknote and therefore only serve to mislead if a tactile feature of this type became incomplete.' But it does incorporate a few things to help the visually impaired (different-sized notes, with each using different coloured shapes — similar in many ways to the design of euro banknotes)." Also Banknote design for the visually impaired  which supports the comments above about the old Netherlands Guilder notes. Alansplodge (talk) 11:52, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

FWIW, intaglio printed currency has generally been "readable" by the blind in the first place (from experience with a person blind since birth as a fellow student many years ago) - the use of Braille by fire exits and at drive-up ATMs has generally amused me, alas. Braille used in normal printing is about .5 mm high - while studies indicate that on fine paper, a height of .15mm is sufficient. Unfortunately this adds 15 mm to a stack of 100 banknotes, and (worse) makes the stack uneven if the notes are aligned. notes that normal wear can make the discrete dots unusable. Canada offers a special banknote reader for the blind, as one other measure (same cite). Thus the use of sufficiently raised Braille or other insignia may be more for image than for practicality. For large denominations, rfid may be practical - the tags can be under 20 microns thick - or .02 mm, about 1/7 the thickness of the "raised dot" system, and the tags do not get worn down. Cost would be under $.01 per tag ( noted a price of 20 cents per tag back in 2004) - noting that the production cost of a US$100 bill is 12.5 cents with the new features just added, this is not a major problem. notes the printing of such tags on paper - reducing the cost still further. Providing each blind person with an rfid reader for such a tag is likely far cheaper than the C$300 Canada spent (some appear to be on the market for about $5 per reader - likely cheaper in the long run than using Braille.). Collect (talk) 11:56, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Sweden's central bank is about to issue new banknotes and have released a smartphone app where you can scan a banknote and have the denomination (and expiration date) read out, specially aimed at the blind. I thought it sounded silly at first. However,a little googling showed me that apparently blind people can use smartphones and that Apple has put a great deal of work into making them useable without seeing the screen. Sjö (talk) 06:25, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
 * As to drive-up ATMs, there is nothing amusing about making them available to car passengers who are blind. --65.94.50.73 (talk) 03:57, 4 August 2015 (UTC)


 * A more general article is Counting on Currency Accessibility WHICH discusses a number of countries and their solutions to this issue. Apparently, "the American Council of the Blind won its lawsuit against the [US] Treasury Department claiming that it is discriminatory and in violation of the Rehabilitation Act not to provide paper money that can be identified by blind citizens." Alansplodge (talk) 12:01, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot everyone for your contributions. That was very helpful. My other car is a cadr (talk) 13:17, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Donduk Kuular
Could someone point me to any references that deal with Donduk Kuular in any degree of detail? Hack (talk) 11:55, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Can you read Russian? Both the German and Russian versions of the article list sources and perhaps they are better. In everything I'm finding in English he's just a mention or a footnote. 184.147.128.46 (talk) 19:57, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

"VERMIS 40·PE·LŌ" on Carta Marina
On the Carta Marina from 1527-39, just off the coast of Norway across from Hetlandia, there's a sort of worm or snake being pinched by a crab. They are accompanied by a legend that looks like "VERMIS 40·PE·LŌ". Does anyone know what this means, and in particular, how the "40" fits in? --Amble (talk) 18:21, 3 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I found a German book which says it means "Schlange von 40 fuß Länge" - snake of 40' length. Google books resultDuncanHill (talk) 18:35, 3 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Interesting, thank you. --Amble (talk) 19:08, 3 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I think the relevant headwords on Wiktionary are "vermis", "pedes" and "longus". Gabbe (talk) 16:25, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
 * As in "vermin". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:00, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
 * But curiously, when we hear "vermin", we don't usually think of worms. I think of fast-moving little critters with legs, which worms don't have.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:51, 4 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, Gabbe, those would be the ones. I had convinced myself that someone writing at that time wouldn't have used Arabic numerals along with Latin text, so the "40" must be a misreading on my part.  However, DuncanHill's source shows that it really is just "40" after all.  It's interesting to see how the author chose between Arabic and Roman numerals for different purposes.  It looks like Roman for countable things like populations and numbers of islands; Roman for years and hours; Arabic for latitudes and longitudes (including extents); and perhaps a preference for Arabic with other units(?). --Amble (talk) 22:00, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Hungarian border fence and Asian immigrants
Has any notable paper or individual noted the irony in the fact that, of all European peoples, it is the Hungarians who are building a fence to ward off Asian immigrants? Surtsicna (talk) 22:27, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Irony? The fence is apparently on the Serbian border.   The UK, inter alia, is not on that border. Serbia is not within the "no border control" zone of the EU,  and from independent accounts, significant numbers of underdocumented workers from troubled areas mainly in Asia have used it as a route into the EU zone.  Collect (talk) 23:06, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Historically, the former Soviet Bloc countries built fences to keep people from leaving their country... for one of them to now build a fence to keep people from entering is indeed somewhat ironic (and somewhat refreshing). Blueboar (talk) 23:40, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

It isn't ironic at all, other than in a sense of history repeating itself. This from Chapter 12 of Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire:


 * Instead of reducing the warlike natives of Germany to the condition of subjects, Probus contented himself with the humble expedient of raising a bulwark against their inroads. The country which now forms the circle of Swabia had been left desert in the age of Augustus by the emigration of its ancient inhabitants. The fertility of the soil soon attracted a new colony from the adjacent provinces of Gaul. Crowds of adventurers, of a roving temper and of desperate fortunes, occupied the doubtful possession, and acknowledged, by the payment of tithes the majesty of the empire. To protect these new subjects, a line of frontier garrisons was gradually extended from the Rhine to the Danube. About the reign of Hadrian, when that mode of defence began to be practised, these garrisons were connected and covered by a strong intrenchment of trees and palisades. In the place of so rude a bulwark, the emperor Probus constructed a stone wall of a considerable height, and strengthened it by towers at convenient distances. From the neighborhood of Newstadt and Ratisbon on the Danube, it stretched across hills, valleys, rivers, and morasses, as far as Wimpfen on the Necker, and at length terminated on the banks of the Rhine, after a winding course of near two hundred miles. This important barrier, uniting the two mighty streams that protected the provinces of Europe, seemed to fill up the vacant space through which the barbarians, and particularly the Alemanni, could penetrate with the greatest facility into the heart of the empire. But the experience of the world, from China to Britain, has exposed the vain attempt of fortifying any extensive tract of country. An active enemy, who can select and vary his points of attack, must, in the end, discover some feeble spot, on some unguarded moment. The strength, as well as the attention, of the defenders is divided; and such are the blind effects of terror on the firmest troops, that a line broken in a single place is almost instantly deserted. The fate of the wall which Probus erected may confirm the general observation. Within a few years after his death, it was overthrown by the Alemanni. Its scattered ruins, universally ascribed to the power of the Dæmon, now serve only to excite the wonder of the Swabian peasant. 83.9.223.102 (talk) 09:59, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

With all due respect, I am unhatting my question. This is a reference desk and I was very specifically asking for a reference. What does the UK have to do with any of this? It seems that I have to be more specific about my question as well. I am asking for an article (preferably in a reputable paper, or an opinion of a notable individual) in which a connection is made between the Hungarian conquest of the Carpathian Basin (i.e. the Magyars storming in from Asia and settling in Europe only about a dozen centuries ago) and the 21st-century Hungarian authorities taking it upon themselves to ward off Asian immigrants. Surtsicna (talk) 10:44, 4 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Having searched Google, I did not find any published pieces remarking on that particular historical irony. (There are pieces pointing out the irony that Hungary recently had border defenses to keep its citizens from leaving for Austria, whereas now the country is putting up defenses to keep people from entering.)  Marco polo (talk) 13:46, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Tumblr is that way Asmrulz (talk) 23:25, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
 * When did Tumblr become a reputable paper? Surtsicna (talk) 00:00, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
 * No, the question is when did WP:RD become tumblr Asmrulz (talk) 00:25, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Ah, I wouldn't know about that. How is that related to this thread, though? Surtsicna (talk) 10:48, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
 * It's a comment on your style of question. Phrasing of the kind you used is common among people who want to soapbox about something, but want to mask their true intent by phrasing it as a question. "Has any long term Wikipedian noted that Jimmy Wales is ugly?" kind of thing. At best, the person has already formed an opinion and is now looking for validation. 64.235.97.146 (talk) 14:09, 5 August 2015 (UTC)