Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2015 January 10

= January 10 =

Where is Hammeliski?
I'm having a go at improving a stub article, HMS Nile (1839). One source, W.L. Clowes on the 1854-56 Russian ("Crimean") War, says "On September 18th, the boats of the Nile boarded and burnt some vessels near Hammeliski". It's somewhere in the Baltic Sea, but the only references I can find to "Hammeliski" on Google relate to the same incident. Any ideas? Alansplodge (talk) 01:04, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I struck out on simple search, but you might do better first reading some instructions we have on the Getty Thesaurus of Geographic Names -- Paulscrawl (talk) 01:22, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Looks like unique use on p 499 of v 6 of Clowes' The Royal Navy: A History - not in newspapers.com, Trove (which reprints lots of British newspaper clippings), nor index to Ency. Brit. 1911 ed. -- Paulscrawl (talk) 02:30, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Could it be the Russian name for some place we know by another name? If only I could transliterate it into Cyrillic I could check that.  Alternatively, could it derive from someone's terrible misreading of an illegibly written "Helsinki"? --Antiquary (talk) 10:56, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't think it could be Helsinki; " As part of the Grand Duchy of Finland in the Russian Empire it was known as Gelsingfors", according to our article. You may be right about the Cyrillic transliteration though, I hadn't thought of that. Alansplodge (talk) 12:51, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't know whether it's a typo or an alternative transliteration or what, but the catalogue of an 1891 Royal Naval Exhibition renders the name "Hummeliski". Deor (talk) 12:59, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Nice find. Hummeliski also not in newspapers.com, Trove.
 * Getty Thesaurus of Geographic Names (direct link to search) allows wildcard * (asterisk) for right truncation only. No luck with Hammel*, Hamel*, Hummel*, Humel* - but more variations are easy to try. What else might be plausible Slavic (unspecified, not necess. Russian) transcription of what appears to be German name for "hill" (judging by hits)? -- Paulscrawl (talk) 16:40, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Helsinki is mentioned earlier as Helsingfors, along with its fortress of Sweaborg (Suomenlinna), which was the site of a major operation in July 1855. So Helsinki not Hammeliski. You can check the log of the HMS Nile at the National Archives, but it's not online and you have to go see it in person, so I'm not sure if that helps... Adam Bishop (talk) 17:44, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Interesting. I see your point. "Hammeliski" reference source (Cowles Royal Navy, v. 6, linked above) has distinct index entries for "Helsingfors" (though none for "Helsinki") -- Paulscrawl (talk) 18:11, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * There's a place called "Humaliskari" in Finland, part of Pyhäranta, which is on the coast and conceivably could have been attacked here. I'm seeing some results in Italian for "Humaliski", "La fortificazione di Bjorkò e di Humaliski è necessaria per difendere i pressi di Leningrado" - this is apparently referring to WWII, but Björkö is mentioned in Clowes' book too (as Biorko). Another Italian source mentions "la base navale di Hango e le isole di Bjorko e di Humaliski", with Björkö and Hanko. So I assume it's an island near St. Petersburg. Adam Bishop (talk) 19:05, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh, actually one says "Humaliski nella vicinanze della Carelia" - so it's in Karelia? Adam Bishop (talk) 19:15, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The Björkö in Karelia is now called Primorsk, Leningrad Oblast; the unfortunate Finns had to give it to the Soviets at the end of WWII. Alansplodge (talk) 14:03, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Not much help but information from the Baltic Fleet a regular column in the London Times makes not mention of the Nile around the 18 September 1855, its mentioned before and after that date. MilborneOne (talk) 18:59, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you everybody for your input. I think we're about as close as we're going to get. Alansplodge (talk) 14:03, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I have amended the relevant sentence in the article to read: "On 18 September 1855, Nile's boats boarded and burnt some Russian vessels, reportedly near Hammeliski (possibly Humaliski on the island of Björkö, now called Primorsk, Leningrad Oblast)". I have also added a note to the talk page directing curious users to this discussion. Alansplodge (talk) 16:28, 11 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Just guessing at the Russian spelling, but "Хумалиски" brings up this website, which appears to be about the defenses of Leningrad before WWII. Humaliski is mentioned alongside the Vuoksi River and "Kolevets", wherever that is. Adam Bishop (talk) 11:25, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Percentage of US citizens with family members in another country
I know there are statistics on how many people in the US travel overseas to visit family or friends, and how many Americans are foreign born or second generation immigrants, but I am wondering if there are estimates on how many Americans have family in another country, say as defined as a relative they regularly keep in touch with (it could be a sibling, cousin, grandparent etc. but should be close enough that they know personally). Would there be a good way to estimate this information from other statistics if this kind of data isn't available? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.226.108.89 (talk) 06:03, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Largest cities in mountain passes?
What are the world's most populous cities that are located in mountain passes (not mountain valleys, like Los Angeles or Mexico City)? —SeekingAnswers (reply) 09:29, 10 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Not really a mountain pass as such, but the city of Belfort (population: 50,000) in north-east France lies in a natural gap between the Vosges Mountains and the Jura mountains, thus creating the strategic "Belfort Gap" that has been fought over for centuries. Proper mountain passes in the usual sense are rather inhospitable places, see the Gotthard Pass. Alansplodge (talk) 10:02, 10 January 2015 (UTC)


 * The population of the administrative area that covers the Khyber Pass is supposed to be about 550,000 but I'm not sure that fits into your definition of a "city".  St ★ lwart 1 1 1 15:17, 10 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Denver ? It's on the Eastern edge of the Rockies, and extends towards Clear Creek/North Clear Creek to the west, into the Rocky Mountains: . Not sure if that qualifies. StuRat (talk) 20:34, 10 January 2015 (UTC)


 * As this nice map illustrates, Denver definitely isn't situated on a mountain pass - it is, as our Denver article notes, in the South Platte River valley. I think this may be a clue as to why few large settlements are built on mountain passes - more or less inevitably, the topography ensures that significant water supplies won't be found nearby. A pass is a local drainage divide, and will typically only have small streams flowing off it. Cities tend to be built on more substantial rivers. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:47, 10 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Probably not exactly on the pass, no, but perhaps controlling access to it, as seems to be the case in Denver. StuRat (talk) 21:35, 10 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Our page on Tiaret, Algeria (pop. 178,915) says that it "occupies a strategic mountain pass at 3,552 feet (1,083 m)". It does admittedly stand on the river Mina, but since neither English nor French Wikipedias have a page on that river it may not amount to much.  I also see references to Dhulikhel, Nepal (pop. 16,263) lying either on a pass or on a hill-top.  But for the reasons Andy gives above I've a nasty feeling neither of these towns will stand up to close examination.  The phrase "city in a mountain pass" only turns up on the Web in fantasy fiction and discussions of fantasy games.  There's got to be a reason for that. --Antiquary (talk) 21:41, 10 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Absence of water, I'd think. --jpgordon:==( o ) 00:52, 11 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Makes sense. As for Tiaret, a Google Maps terrain view seems to show pretty clearly that it's not exactly in the pass; more like sitting at one end of it. But Dhulikhel is an interesting case. The way I "read" the map, there is a sort of pass  running southwest from Ravi Opi toward the center of Dhulikhel; and while the center of Dhulikhel is just southwest of the pass, the town's limits clearly include the whole pass. --65.94.50.4 (talk) 04:36, 11 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Besides the water issue, years of hill walking in the UK lead me to the opinion that passes tend to be natural wind tunnels even on calm days and are therefore not a place that you would want to hang about. Alansplodge (talk) 12:56, 11 January 2015 (UTC)


 * On the plus side, you can set up windmills there, perhaps to pump up the missing water. StuRat (talk) 06:30, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Battle of Klyastitsy
On the page Battle_of_Klyastitsy, he Battle of Klyastitsy, is also called battle of Yakubovo. The last remark [ is also called battle of Yakubovo], is this correct ? Is Yakubovo a city in Belarus or Poland (Jakubowo) ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.87.52.148 (talk) 15:56, 10 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Burton, R G (1914) Napoleon's Invasion Of Russia, George Allen & Co, London (p.77) which says "On 30th July, his [Wittgenstein's] advanced guard came in contact with that of Oudinot at Yakubovo...". I also found Mikaberidze, Alexander (2011) Moritz von Kotzebue's Memoir (p.5), which is based on an 1816 English translation of the German text, which says in a footnote: "He [Yegor Vlastov] received the rank of a major general on 30 October 1812 in recognition of his performance in battles at Yakubovo, Klyastitsy, Golovshina and Beloe". Finally, Henry Cabot Lodge (1913), The History of Nations - Volume 15 (p.411) says in the index "Yakubovo: battle of (1812)...". That's as close as I could get to anybody calling it "the battle of Yakubovo", apart from several webpages which use identical wording to our article.


 * A map of Klyastitsy: Belarus can be seen here. According to the descriptions of the battle, "Yakubovo" is described as a village and it must have been nearby, as the Russians fell back from there to Klyastitsy during the afternoon. As the French were advancing towards St Petersburg, you would have expected them to have been coming from the southwest, but I can't see anything resembling "Yakubovo" in the area. Perhaps it doesn't exist anymore? Alansplodge (talk) 17:53, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, found it ! The Village of Yakubovo is no longer existing on (for example) google maps or google earth. I found it on a OpenStreetMap and the village is problably nowadays called Jakubova. See position: N55° 53.221' E28° 33.038' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.87.52.148 (talk) 18:51, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * 55.88702°N, 28.55063°W fwiw --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:47, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Well done. Is there a Cyrillic transcription for "Jakubova"? Alansplodge (talk) 16:17, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Якубово —Tamfang (talk) 01:51, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Also found on an OpenStreetMap: http://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=55.88756%2C28.54858#map=19/55.88689/28.55105 (якyбobo ?) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.87.52.148 (talk) 17:03, 11 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, Якyбobo (Yakubovo), to the east of which is Клястицы (Klyastitsy). --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  18:19, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you kind sir. Perhaps there's a way of incorporating all this in the article. I might give it a go myself later on. Alansplodge (talk) 22:29, 11 January 2015 (UTC)