Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2015 July 31

= July 31 =

Segregation in the United States.


I have a few segregation-related questions, as I am studying United States history.

1.If you were Asian (i.e Japanese, Chinese) in a southern town with segregation, would you use the White or Coloured drinking fountains/waiting rooms and so on?

2. Did southern whites generally dislike and hate African Americans during segregation, or was there any degree of respect/friendship?

3. Were they any black supporters of 'Separate, but equal'?

Thank you. --Oaapaæraersk (talk) 16:37, 31 July 2015 (UTC)


 * 1) Racism in the United States should help you research the answer to your question.


 * 2) Yes and no to all parts of this question for any given value of "southern" "white" and "African American". That is to say, given the millions of Americans living in the Southern U.S. during the "Jim Crow" era means that you will find a non-zero number of white people who had very good relationships with African Americans, up to and including actively campaigning for civil rights.


 * 3) See the Wikipedia article titled Black separatism.
 * I hope that all helps. -- Jayron 32 16:51, 31 July 2015 (UTC)


 * There's a book about question #1 that you might enjoy. I don't have it, but you can find the introduction online .  For your second question, it's a mistake to assume that bigotry goes along with hatred or dislike.  Even some of the most infamous defenders of segregation, like George Wallace, often had positive relationships with individual African American people.  --Amble (talk) 18:55, 31 July 2015 (UTC)


 * In regards to question #1, there is an interesting discussion here: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=415562.
 * In the Jim Crow south, Asians were an afterthought if considered at all because they were virtually non-existant due to discriminatory U.S. immigration laws & migration patterns. Local communities would react to the rare Asian visitor in an ad hoc way. Some Asians would choose to use "Negro" facilities to be on the safe side but others would use "White" facilities without consequence other than gawking by the locals who may have never seen an Asian person before.
 * One interesting case I can think of was Ahmet Ertugun, who lived in segregated Washington, DC in his youth as son of the Turkish ambassador. At the time, police would arrest white people who tried to visit Black clubs. Ertugun was generally considered White but with enough ambiguity to allow him to cross the color line and see many jazz and blues acts that other whites couldn't see. This familiarity with African-American artists was instrumental in his creation of Atlantic Records. --D Monack (talk) 21:04, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Xingjiang eastern border
Has the border between Xingjiang and the rest of China (excluding Tibet) changed after 1945? --151.41.167.63 (talk) 16:46, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Seems that it did. Until 1949 the East Turkestan Republic had fluid borders. The current administrative unit was established in 1955. According to our article Bayingolin Mongol Autonomous Prefecture, this area was merged into Xinjiang in 1960. --Soman (talk) 18:53, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Does any of those musical instruments exist?
Does any of those instruments exist:

Electric Bass trumpet

Electric Alto Clarinet

Electric Tenox Sax

My google fu is failling this time and this is why I am asking here.

Also I am not asking about Wind controller or whateaver.201.79.58.14 (talk) 17:12, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Since it seems you have excluded any form of electronic synthesizer controlled by a sensor in a mouthpiece (wind controller), leaving only brass instruments (the alto clarinet and saxophone actually woodwinds) sounded by some electrically powered mechanism other than a player's lungs, I would have to say no, they don't exist. Obviously there are various theatre organs that have brass horns controlled by valves, driven by a central source of air pressure, and intended to mimic the single-player instruments, but I don't have the sense that's what you mean.  General Ization   Talk   20:47, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
 * What would an electric wind instrument that WASN'T an EWI or a wind controller do that the OP is looking for? It seems to me that the question is not answerable as written, because the OP is asking "Are there electronic wind instruments that aren't electronic wind instruments".  It makes no sense to me... -- Jayron 32 23:59, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
 * The instruments would be able to output to a headphone allowing me to play whateaver the hell comes into my mind and no one else would be able to complain.179.197.137.129 (talk) 15:36, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if such things exist, but just to clarify the question: In the case of the electric trumpet, are you looking for a mouthpiece and "valves" where some electronic gizmo interprets the "buzz" or airstream through the mouthpiece and the position of the valves to give pitch, tone, and volume?  In the case of the electric clarinet/sax are you looking for a mouthpiece with a (non-squeeky) reed and finger holes/levers where some electronic gizmo interprets the "bite" on the reed, air pressure, and finger positions to give pitch, tone, and volume?  (Both without actually "sounding", although they probably wouldn't be completely silent, but electronic pianos with headphones are not completely silent either.)--Wikimedes (talk) 17:34, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
 * "Electric bass trumpet" is pretty darned specific; bass trumpet is quite the rare bird. Anyway, "Yamaha silent brass" solves your problem for everything from a trumpet to a tuba. --jpgordon:==( o ) 23:42, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Are paper books cheaper now in real terms than pre-Internet?
Observation #1: A 2015 paperback World Almanac has $13.99 printed on it (US dollars). That seems pretty cheap. (I guess they could've printed some with a higher cover price for earlier sale as the new one comes out in like 4 months but that's what it said yesterday).

Observation #2: I got a very new (2016) Rand McNally Road Atlas for $14.99 plus tax last July 21 but paid $11.99 plus tax for a similar atlas in fall of '01 — or $16.16 inflation adjusted. So it was obsolete by over 3.3 months if they follow Rand McNally's updating schedule and was still more expensive. (It was spiral bound instead of stapled and had a thicker cover though, however Rand McNally® is the most popular brand for decades and this was an American Map®).

Have book prices in general slowed and lagged inflation at some point after the Internet?

Some books would benefit more than others of course. Copyrighted fiction probably didn't benefit as much, those e-reader things are only what half a decade old and the e-fiction business model hasn't been popular for long. Maybe more commodity-like nonfiction like the World Almanac or especially dictionaries have inflated the least? Anything that can be found free on the Internet for the last decade or two is probably doing pretty good now if you're buying. Could real prices continue to fall? I don't see why book use might not slowly decrease over the next olympiads and decades. Eventually it might be hard to find some kinds of books, right? Some will become unprofitable to print unless prices rise, road atlases will no longer be sold not only in drug stores but also in bookstores, and encyclopedia sets will become an endangered species? I can't imagine what would happen when anyone who remembers 2025 is dead. Paper might be a steampunk chic market by then.

I guess the US dollar is strong now, but the new atlas is American and I think I would've remembered if the old atlas had a strange foreign postcode in it so it's not because American Map® got unusually little of the home currency per dollar. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:25, 31 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Back in the early eighties before my first job $3.15 minimum wage I had a $5.00 weekly allowance. This usually allowed me to buy two or three paperbacks at $.95 or $1.95 each.  Milk and gas were about $1.50/gallon.  I was shocked when I first had to pay $2.95 for a paperback.  Nowadays the exact same books that cost $.95 or $1.95 cost $5.99 to $7.99 each, while gas and milk are around $3/gallon.  There was a steady increase in the cost of paper in the US over the 1990's which led to a large increase in the prices of magazines and newspapers as well.  This was widely remarked upon, with the daily NYT more than tripling in price that decade--and not due to loss of revenue to the internet. μηδείς (talk) 01:10, 1 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Undoubtedly books are cheaper now than in my youth; and I'd suggest three reasons: (1) in the UK, the collapse of the Nett Book Agreement, which was a price-fixing cartel designed to protect the interests of publishers and booksellers by keeping book prices high; (2) the increase in general wealth, which has increased at a faster rate than the inflation rate of books, making them proportionately cheaper as a percentage of nett disposable income; and, (3) the advent of the Information Age and, in particular, Amazon.com, which has, alternately, reduced book costs by dispensing with High Street bookshops; created a marketplace for secondhand books and books published on demand; and supplied alternatives to traditional, book-based sources of information - both in purchasing books (who buys a set of encyclopaedias nowadays?) and book-based research (most people are familiar with searching through Google).


 * Empirically, as a child, one hardly ever bought hardback books due to their expense. Now, I find that I typically prefer to buy hardbacks as I consider their cost, on an Amazonian 'nearly new' basis, quite reasonable. Apparently, in the UK at least, more books are now sold annually than ever before.


 * I don't think that book usage will fall in the future, the dystopian views of Fahrenheit 451 and 1984 notwithstanding. Books are still more useful than computers for detailed research (including annotation) and as textbooks. What might change (decrease) is the concept of reading for pleasure, as we find our spare time crowded out by distractions such as the use of the internet and computer games. 178.42.99.152 (talk) 18:25, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I know this is completely off-topic, but what in the world is with the nett thingy? You used it twice and had to use a pipe to do it, so it was obviously on purpose, but it seems an odd thing to insist on.  Wiktionary actually finds it, which is a bit surprising; to me it looked like a simple misspelling. --Trovatore (talk) 21:55, 1 August 2015 (UTC)


 * It is the traditional English spelling (as opposed to American usage), used to distinguish between 'the bottom line' and any thing reticulated, or decussated, at equal distances, with interstices between the intersections. 178.42.106.78 (talk) 19:54, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Since 178.42's from enlightened Europe he might not realize that working class real household income in the US has tread water from the 70s to the Great Recession, and that's only because women started working. You have to get to know a woman enough that you move into the same place and share incomes just to tread water. Then the Great Recession happened and I believe working class real incomes fell. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:06, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Apostasy in Catholicism
I was reading apostasy, and I noticed that the punishment for apostasy is death. Does that mean Catholic apostates can be burned at the stake or tortured? What counts as apostasy in Catholicism today? How does the modern Catholic church treat apostates? 66.213.29.17 (talk) 18:43, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Maybe in Henry VIII's time, but not now. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:19, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
 * The scores were Henry VIII: 63 (declared after becoming a Protestant himself), Mary I: 284. See List of Protestant martyrs of the English Reformation for the full match statistics. Alansplodge (talk) 20:40, 31 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I found The Catholic Encyclopedia which says: "Today the temporal penalties formerly inflicted on apostates and heretics cannot be enforced, and have fallen into abeyance. The spiritual penalties are the same as those which apply to heretics... Apostates, with all who receive, protect, or befriend them, incur excommunication, reserved speciali modo to the Sovereign Pontiff." Alansplodge (talk) 20:49, 31 July 2015 (UTC)


 * (e/c) See also Separation of church and state. Even in countries where the head of state is also head of a church (like the United Kingdom), the state runs things like the justice system while the church looks after the spiritual well-being of its adherents.  (Well, mostly, anyway - there are still some exceptions in Mesopotamia and Afghanistan.  In North Korea, you can get shot just for being a member of a church.)  Some would say that excommunication or anathema (a punishment meted out by a church) are far worse than death (whether enforced by execution, or by natural causes).  Indeed, death through martyrdom is considered the Parnassus of human achievement in many places.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:52, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Of course, the problem with excommunication being the maximum punishment for anathma is that it is a fairly hollow punishment... at lest from the point of view of the person being "punished". It is sort of like quitting your job, and then hearing that your boss replied: "He quit?... can't have that... he's fired!"  Blueboar (talk) 16:20, 2 August 2015 (UTC)


 * "I noticed that the punishment for apostasy is death". I read the apostasy and Apostasy in Christianity articles couldn't find any statement that the punishment for apostasy is or was death in Catholicism (as opposed to Islam). Was it the webpage Alansplodge quotes? The Catholic Encyclopedia was published in 1907, so "Today" is not really today. The canon law is Can. 1364:
 * §1. Without prejudice to the prescript of can. 194, §1, n. 2, an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication; in addition, a cleric can be punished with the penalties mentioned in can. 1336, §1, nn. 1, 2, and 3.
 * §2. If contumacy of long duration or the gravity of scandal demands it, other penalties can be added, including dismissal from the clerical state.
 * From 1983 to 2009, canon law provided for a formal act of defection from the Catholic Church, basically a form you could fill out to become an apostate. The internet made form-filling too easy, so they abolished it. But that doesn't mean they've brought back burning. jnestorius(talk) 13:25, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Were Hercules and Sampson the same guy?
Based on the same real person, I mean? I've heard that suggested before. --146.198.142.19 (talk) 19:26, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
 * The Samson article discusses this to some extent. They shared some traits, but their specific stories don't overlap much. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:49, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, Hercules was born of a mortal woman and the god of the sky, performed miracles, was betrayed by someone he loved, and then died in terrible agony only to ascend up to heaven to be with his father. Sounds like someone else from the bible... 99.235.223.170 (talk) 21:25, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Except Jesus was more the intellectual type. Although coming from a blue-collar upbringing, He was probably fit. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:28, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
 * There's sort of a ship of Theseus issue here. There are two different names for these characters, with two different ethnicities, so clearly something is different about them.  If there ever were original "real people", maybe they even had those names... maybe not.  How much of the story about them can be replaced by bards who cut-and-paste parts of one tale to the other before they become "the same"?  How much of the story can be changed for dramatic effect before it is about someone "different"? Wnt (talk) 11:20, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
 * A special point is that they have been written. --78.126.122.132 (talk) 15:23, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Given that a conservative reading of both characters' first appearances dates literature mentioning Heracles to about three centuries before literature mentioning Samson (see articles), it is possible that the story of Samson may be derived from the earliest stories of Heracles. However, there doesn't seem to be any evidence to support this, so nothing of real significance can be claimed either for or against this position. Both characters are examples of the same archetype, so the similarities in their stories may simply arise because humans tend to tell the same stories over and over again. I suspect every mythology has a few "strong man" stories, so it's not surprising to find these in both Hebrew and Greek myths. RomanSpa (talk) 19:54, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Franco-New brunswick community and acadian community
Is there a difference between the Franco-New Brunswick community and the Acadian community in New Brunswick or they are the same? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.29.33.167 (talk) 20:56, 31 July 2015 (UTC)


 * "Franco-New Brunswick community" is not a term in common use so I don't know what you mean by it. This will give you some information on French-speaking New Brunswickers. 184.147.133.47 (talk) 19:49, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Online sources for pre-1945 UK parliamentary by-elections
I've got sources for post 1945 by-elections, and I'm happy sourcing these articles. I'd like pre 1945 articles. Are there online sources for these, or failing that subscription services open to Wikipedians?

JASpencer (talk) 21:23, 31 July 2015 (UTC)


 * If they exist, User:BrownHairedGirl will know where to find them. – iridescent 21:31, 31 July 2015 (UTC)


 * While you are waiting. There's a list of Parliamentary historical material that is available online here, though you'll have to look through it as unhappily it doesn't have a handy by-election category.
 * Another thought - WP:RX is set up to help people access not-publically-available resources for the purposes of Wikipedia sourcing, but I don't know if it works for books - you'll have to explore that I think. But what about inter-library loan from your own library: By-Elections in British Politics, 1832-1914 and British Electoral Facts: 1832-1987 and A History of British Elections since 1689 seem the ones that everyone else refers to. 184.147.133.47 (talk) 19:37, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi JASpencer (and iridescent!)
 * For bare facts (date, candidates, votes) FWS Craig's books of results are my basic tool. They are rare and expensive to buy, but your local library should have them.
 * As to online sources, the best are the newspapers. I make heavy use of The Times archive, to which I have access through a library.  It has a strong unionist/tory bias, but it's usually right on the basic facts.  I also highly commend the British Newspaper Archive, for which free access is available to selected Wikpiedians on request at WP:BNA. It has a much wider variety of papers, so it offers a broader spread of perspectives. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 08:44, 4 August 2015 (UTC)