Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2015 November 17

= November 17 =

Terrorist attacks in Paris, France
According to the article:


 * "France had been bombing various targets in the Middle East, including Syria, since October 2015. ISIL's motive was retaliation for French involvement in the Syrian Civil War and Iraqi Civil War. In the weeks leading up to the attacks, ISIL had claimed responsibility for several attacks, such as twin suicide bombings in Beirut two days earlier, and the crashing of Metrojet Flight 9268 on 31 October"

Why is France such a target for ISIS? Why France instead of the plethora of other countries that were involved in the Syrian Civil war and Iraq civil war? Is France just an easier target? 199.19.248.7 (talk) 00:28, 17 November 2015 (UTC)


 * See Islam in France: "With an estimated total of 5 to 10 percent of the national population, France has the largest number of Muslims in Western Europe." Wnt (talk) 00:48, 17 November 2015 (UTC)


 * See also French Mandate for Syria and the Lebanon, Syria was a French-controlled territory for some time, and the historical legacy of colonialism reaches deep and wide. -- Jayron 32 12:58, 17 November 2015 (UTC)


 * ISIS allegedly says they're getting around to the others. And it's not like France is "such a target". You note yourself, it was preceded by attacks on Russia and Lebanon. Iraq and Syria are still the main targets, as far as states go. Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Egypt and Turkey have been hit already this year, and other countries have had attacks blamed on, but not claimed by, ISIS. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:01, 17 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Some commentators in the UK are saying that Paris was an easier target than London because of the Schengen Area allowing free movement across borders in continental Europe . I'm not saying that you can't smuggle several AK-47s into the UK but it wouldn't be easy, neither would it be easy to obtain one here. Alansplodge (talk) 11:58, 21 November 2015 (UTC)


 * In a recent case, drugs were imported into Britain in fake ambulances.  Millions of pounds' worth were distributed until police followed an ambulance to the Midlands and stopped it.   The gang even had fake patients with fake letters from hospitals.   I would guess that, this country being an island, it is very easy to smuggle contraband in using boats. 78.146.211.190 (talk) 19:38, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

B&B, an anachronism?
I was surprised in episode 8 of this year's Downton Abbey to hear the earl refer to Mrs Patmore's "B&B". Is this an anachronism? I see from Ngram that Bed and Breakfast was used as early as the 1840's, but B&B sounded very recent to me. Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 05:01, 17 November 2015 (UTC)


 * The OED Online has a 1993 draft entry under "B and B, also b and b" with four citations dated 1961, 1964, 1967, and 1986, so it looks as if Downton Abbey did get it wrong. In fact, none of the 1960s cites actually uses B&B as a noun meaning a type of guest house.  The 1961 one refers to a criminal who broke into a factory and fell asleep as "the B-and-b raider", and the other two use the abbreviation to refer to bed and breakfast service rather than the establishment offering them. --70.49.170.168 (talk) 05:44, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Downton Abbey has been much criticised for its clunking anachronisms, particularly in the language used. --Dweller (talk) 07:40, 17 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Yep, well I remember there was sump'm else quite anachronistic (or anatopostic) from a prior season, but this simply smacked me upside the face. I should of googled this. μηδείς (talk) 02:27, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you for that link Medeis. What a wonderful phrase is "British language prescriptivists". Alansplodge (talk) 11:46, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Dancing Israelis
See here01 I have tried doing some research to find out what this is all about but I am afraid that most if not all of it is unreliable. Does anyone have accurate/informative references about this? 199.19.248.7 (talk) 06:37, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
 * It's a classic conspiracy myth. A little bit of truth (some Israelis were arrested by understandably nervous cops on 9/11) made into nonsense. More info here. Not that the truth will interest anyone desperately looking to pin just about anything on Jews. http://www.funny.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/Funny.woa/wa/funny?fn=CJ2FB& --Dweller (talk) 07:38, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Unamerican Activities Committee transcripts
Does anyone know where I can find transcripts of the investigative hearings conducted by the House Un-American Activities Committee? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.76.174 (talk) 14:35, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Here maybe? -- Jayron 32 15:31, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
 * If that doesn't help, here is the official archives of the House of Representatives records. Maybe that will help?  -- Jayron 32 15:35, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

information regarding mandatory life class modelling in british art schools until 1960s.
I am seeking further information regarding female art students in british art schools up until mid 1960s being obliged to model nude for classes. I know from first hand accounts that this occurred but am unable to find any information on the subject. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Starkpic (talk • contribs) 17:34, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

KFC then and now
Is the chicken the same size/quality as decade(s) ago? Many thanks. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 21:00, 17 November 2015 (UTC)


 * I cannot find any information on KFC's chickens "changing" over time, I can find that KFC aims for consistency across the entire chain in terms of size and flavor of the birds; this makes sense from a marketing and cooking point of view, in that you'd want uniform cooking times and uniform customer experiences across the entire chain. KFC uses 35-day old chickens, raised on large factory farms.  Without getting into passing a value judgement on the practice, as the article does, that 35-day growth period should give you a rough idea of the size of the bird.  Chicken_(food) discusses size of birds based on growth time.  It notes that the smallest market chickens, Poussin, are 28 days old, while the next largest age, the "fryer chickens" are 7 weeks (49 days) old.  Thus, the typical KFC bird is somewhat younger (and thus smaller) than the typical market fryers; if you purchased a "fryer chicken" at your local grocery story, it would be somewhat larger than what KFC uses for its chicken.  I don't know if this has changed over the years, but that's what it is today.  -- Jayron 32 21:11, 17 November 2015 (UTC)


 * In general, everything used to be better. No clue about bigger. I'll never eat there again. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:50, 17 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Chicken, in general, was only flavourful until 1948, when it became plentiful. Allegedly. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:55, 17 November 2015 (UTC)


 * It is not just chicken, it's everything. In the past we have real democracy, now it is all fake democracy but since everyone now grew up in fake democracy environment, fake democracy is now the real democracy. It is all shadows on the wall. Allegory of the Cave 175.45.116.66 (talk) 01:08, 18 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Real democracy? The era when we had slaves? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:25, 18 November 2015 (UTC)


 * No, I think he means the era of the robber barons and political machines had total control of public life in the U.S. -- Jayron 32 15:35, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * There was never real democracy. It cannot coexist with capitalism, and capitalism really exists. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 21:02, 18 November 2015 (UTC)


 * This is about useless, but my personal recollection was that the chicken flavor went downhill somewhere near the time that they went from "Kentucky Fried Chicken" to the TLA. And then it went further downhill in some places as they opened up combination stores with taco restaurants, etc., which presumably meant sharing some of the same oil ... the good news, though, is that there are several very tasty fried chicken competitors nowadays. Wnt (talk) 02:08, 18 November 2015 (UTC)


 * The better news is, since all your fast-food chicken is made in the same goddamned place, everyone could just use the exact same bag of natural and artificial flavouring to spice up equally bland tofu, which is much, much cheaper and doesn't require unfathomable levels of murder.


 * The problem is, studies show, tofu turns Americans gay. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:32, 18 November 2015 (UTC)


 * I was thinking of Popeyes Louisiana Kitchen, though I have encountered others at least as good; I tracked this down to this nebulous page which doesn't tell me much, but I'm skeptical they're secretly supplying KFC without crowing about it!
 * As for cheap tofu alternatives ... can you point them out? I mean, I'm prone to try something if I notice a lower price on the rack, but meatless alternatives don't stick out in my mind as being particularly cheap. Wnt (talk) 15:50, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I buy Mandarin brand. $1.50 for 420g. Which yes, is currently more than chicken, at the store. That's a supply and demand problem, which could be solved with the right marketing. Simpler and cheaper to produce. The main appeal (to me) is simply the lack of industrial-scale cruelty. Invaluable. But yeah, "fuck those stupid birds" is a very common sentiment. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:29, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Can you point to some data that actually tells me the tofu can be cheaper if more people buy it? I have to be skeptical because there are large portions of the market - like breakfast cereal - where some pretty minimally processed and basic farm products remain permanently pretty expensive.  I mean, you can buy 24 cheap hot dogs (i.e. largely chicken) for $4, the same price as a box of cereal with fewer overall calories.  True, the former gives you colon cancer, but the latter gives you diabetes... life at the low end is seldom dull.  But if we want to convince ourselves we're not overexploiting the resources of our planet worse than everyone else, we would have to live at the low end.  Of course, there are always sunflower seeds ... healthy, absurdly cheap, pretty to see growing by the roadside.  But man cannot live on sunflowers alone - not sure if that's true, but it's a good thing to recite while chowing down on a drumstick :)  Wnt (talk) 16:21, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Maybe I could, but so much out there is tainted by hippie lies, just as the other is full of vulture lies. Simply and unsourced, when things get hot, people want to buy them. Those who wish to sell the most must offer attractive deals. In fast food, the most attractive thing is a low price. So each chain will play the same sort of penny-pinching tricks they always do, just adapted. Everything starts out more expensive. Hell, tofu might be artificially jacked up right now, just because it's seen as "green" and "fashionable". Nothing a middle-of-the-road ad campaign can't fix. Worked for cereal, eggs and beer. Tofu is basically all of those things. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:21, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Two companies apparently supply KFC with flavour (as of 2005), and neither knows who the other one is. Marion Kay Spices, out of Brownsville, Indiana, seems a likely suspect. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:33, 18 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Chicken, and livestock in general (but also all food), in the US has been radically changed over the last few decades. The goals have been to grow it as large as possible as quickly as possible, with the minimal amount of money spent to get it ready.  How have they accomplished this ?  A combo of breeding, antibiotics, precisely mixed nutrients in the feed, growth hormones, limiting movement so they don't burn calories that way, etc.  Note that tasting good is not one of the goals, as consumers can't taste it before making the purchase decision, and thus tasty chicken is not the result they achieve (plus they can somewhat fake it by injecting the chicken with "flavoring agents").  There are organic, free-range chickens available to those who are pickier about what they eat, but I wouldn't expect KFC to offer those any time soon.  Try someplace like Panera Bread for that (no fried chicken, but they have grilled chicken on salads, in soups, etc.). StuRat (talk) 07:18, 18 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Hormone administration for growth purposes is only approved in the U.S. for beef cattle. "Tasting good is not one of the goals" is kind of an odd claim, since few people only purchase food from a restaurant once in their lives. If they don't like the food, they probably won't come back. This is not to say that taste is the only factor considered, and it is true that intensive livestock farming has been strongly driven by a desire to increase yield. --71.119.131.184 (talk) 10:18, 18 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Well, as I said, they have ways of faking the flavor that cost far less. Between the flavoring agents they inject and the fried grease and salt and spices, it's difficult to tell what the actual chicken tastes like.  Not so if you prepare it at home without all that (although many chicken parts are sold in the US with the flavoring agents already injected, so you will never know how bland the actual chicken is).  StuRat (talk) 22:21, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Supermarket chicken tastes all wrong, slightly chloriney, gluey, odd, flavoured, gross. It is nice to have natural, freerange chicken (especially capon, a significant proportion of what is walking around in villages). You can really taste the difference. Nothing bland about it. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 22:39, 18 November 2015 (UTC)


 * If all chickens were raised in the organic free range way, how much more expensive would a KFC meal become? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:00, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * From the 1948 link above, "The bird that was selling for 60¢ a pound in 1948 was down to 39¢ in 1968. In 1948, a 5-pound chicken cost $3 — which might sound inexpensive, but in today’s dollars it works out to $30 for a single bird. In 2015, a supermarket chicken will run you $7. Chicken today costs less than a quarter of what it did during the Chicken of Tomorrow contest."
 * Of course, some of the genetic advances could stay, but there'd still be a subtanstial wait before they're big enough. So, about quadruple price, if your entire KFC meal is various degrees of chicken. On the bright side, that'd mean fewer fat dead poor people (or the dark side, if you don't like poor people). InedibleHulk (talk) 23:26, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Or, lower income persons would stop buying KFC and get burgers instead, and then KFC would go bust. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:44, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Aye. Even hypothetically, I can't imagine an America where only one of the three breakfast burrito animals (or fourteen, if you count Thanksgiving) gets life, liberty or the pursuit of truffles without the others. They'd scream "That's not fair!" so loudly and flail so pathetically that even the bin of piglets at McRib Facility #1408 would feel sorry for them. It's terrible what billionaires have to put up with these days. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:37, 19 November 2015 (UTC)


 * In answer to the question, no. There is not a specific Wikipedia article on the modern chicken, but you can google 'Henry Saglio' and 'The Chicken of Tomorrow', which will basically tell you that the former bred the latter. The modern chicken is bigger and grows quicker, but at the expense of taste. If you can access the BBC website, I suggest that you listen to this radio programme: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06gqh8k


 * As an aside, the great chicken expert Cab Calloway can be found on You Tube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88pD6vKNptk . 5.80.70.207 (talk) 15:29, 18 November 2015 (UTC)


 * From anecdotal experience, I think that there are large international variations. In Florida, what I got was mostly battered bones. In Jamaica, KFC was excellent (but always in competition with local Jerk chicken stands), and here in Germany it's somewhat in between. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:01, 18 November 2015 (UTC)


 * You mention different places. Well, here's the skinny here in China: A decade ago, KFC was new. People tried to like it. It might have been okay then. It is less and less popular. Personally, I don't eat it, but did as a kid in Montreal. Here, it appears small, soggy, and expensive. A drumstick is around $2 USD. That same money can buy a taxi for 2km or 3 x 2l water or a pound of raw pork. McDs is way less popular and a worse value. Interestingly, few know what a thigh is here. KFC sells them, but one may have to point to it. Some KFC workers know it as "big leg" as opposed to the drumstick "little leg". But then, some refer to big and little leg as drumstick and wing drumette. The supermarkets don't have them:


 * ME: I would like chicken thighs. Why no chicken thighs?
 * SUPERMARKET: What?
 * ME: The other part of the leg. It is attached to the drumstick.
 * SUPERMARKET: There is drumstick, that is leg, and then body. Breast?
 * ME: No. It is part of the leg. (I show him my thigh.) See? This part?
 * SUPERMARKET: Huh? Wing?
 * ME: No, thigh. This part.
 * SUPERMARKET: Chicken body has breast. Two parts stick out: leg (points to drumstick) and wing.
 * ME: The leg is made of drumstick and thigh. It has two parts, like our legs.
 * SUPERMARKET: Wing?
 * ME: No. Thigh.
 * SUPERMARKET: Only drumstick.
 * ME: Fine. Forget it. Thanks anyway.


 * Maybe they turn them into chicken dogs or something. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 21:02, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * What do all of the butchers do with the thighs? As their cutting up the chickens, do they throw them away?  Have you tried taking a whole chicken to the butcher in the store and pointing to the part you want?  For the record, it's proven that, objectively, the thigh is the best, tastiest, and most awesome part of the chicken.  I would never trust a culture that didn't know that.  -- Jayron 32 21:06, 18 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Thighs are best! I think supermarkets bring in frozen parts. Whole chickens are sold whole.


 * Market butchers take beef, mutton and poultry and just whack it with a cleaver until it is in small bits. They generally do not differentiate between this cut and that. Pork, on the other hand, is carefully cut into tenderloin, feet, shoulders, etc. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 21:54, 18 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Much (or all, if they're careful) of what the processing plants can't sell as "meat" becomes the "real chicken" in pet food and probably frozen fingers and nuggets (though the National Chicken Council swears that's luncheon meat's game). Talons, brains, eyeballs, intestines, the good stuff kids go for. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:25, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Pity to waste lovely thighs. And chicken brains? I've seen them. They're miniscule. Not worth extracting for by-products. By the way, chickens are total idiots. I'm in the countryside a lots, so surrounded by them. Cocks are smarter, but hens, well, hens are morons. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 22:35, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * It's not brain surgery. They just hang them upside down by the hundreds, and their heads fall onto the floor (unless they're halal). Then it's just broom and dustpan work. Dogs and poor people don't mind a little beak and tongue with their brain. Even a retarded junkie can (and often will) do it. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:55, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Dude, the preferred nomenclature is "intellectually disabled substance abuser". Anna Frodesiak (talk) 23:00, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * True enough. My apologies to that demographic. Speaking of hopeless downward spirals ending in jail... InedibleHulk (talk) 23:12, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm sure you will be forgiven. :) I was scolded once in IRC for using such a term. I guess am am behind the times because I did not know the right term. Our hearts are in the right place to be sure. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 09:48, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I just watched the latest South Park, and calling cafeteria plans retarded isn't cool, even for "special" editors who prefer "handicapped". Timely as always. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:25, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you all, as usual, for the thoughtful and informative responses! Anna Frodesiak (talk) 21:02, 18 November 2015 (UTC)