Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2015 November 27

= November 27 =

How does one contribute to a charity in someone else's name?
Not sure where to post. So I will post this here. How exactly does one contribute to a charity in the name of another person? I mean ... I will write the check or pay with a credit card. So, the "payer" is obviously going to be me (my name), on the check or the credit card. Does one simply put a notation on the "memo" line of the check? And, if not paying by check but rather by credit card, what does one do? And, how exactly does the person get notified that a contribution was made in his name by me (through me? or through the charitable organization? or does he not get notified at all?)? I want to give Christmas gifts and this year my gifts will be donations to a charity in the name of, say, my friend. I will be doing this with several gifts (several friends), not just one. So how exactly does one go about this? Thanks. If it matters, this is in the USA. 2602:252:D13:6D70:186C:D475:39EF:E0EC (talk) 06:47, 27 November 2015 (UTC)


 * In the cases I have seen they already have a system set up for this. On the form you just check the box that says it's in somebody else's name, and provide their name and address, then they send that person a card telling them the gift was made in their name.  If the charity you have in mind doesn't do this, you could call them and ask if they would.  I suspect most would be willing to do so, if the contribution made it worth the effort.


 * One warning, though, is that the charity in question now has the names and addresses of two people they view as potential revenue sources, so you both can expect junk mail. Therefore, if you give to PETA, the recipient of your gift can look forward to a continuous chain of letters with pics of tortured animals, until they agree to give (my Mom gets those). StuRat (talk) 07:37, 27 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Oh, man. I didn't even consider the "junk mail" component.  But, you are right.  I have contributed to many charities.  I often "regret" it, when I start getting a ton of junk mail of their solicitations for more contributions.  That's not fair of me to foist that upon another person -- a friend of mine, no less.  And in the name of a "gift", no less.  Wow.  I am glad that you mentioned it.  I had not thought of that at all.  2602:252:D13:6D70:186C:D475:39EF:E0EC (talk) 10:28, 27 November 2015 (UTC)


 * This is what spam filters and shredders are for. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:53, 27 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes. But, still, I think it would annoy the recipient of such a "gift".  And rightly so. 2602:252:D13:6D70:A8EE:8AAC:331:7E78 (talk) 06:01, 28 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Some charities are less obnoxious, and rather than send you pics of tortured animals might send you useful things, like return address labels, notepads, and calendars (hopefully with pleasant pics). StuRat (talk) 14:28, 30 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's true. 2602:252:D13:6D70:9562:88E6:981C:9C76 (talk) 06:26, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! 2602:252:D13:6D70:9562:88E6:981C:9C76 (talk) 06:26, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Economic logic behind timing of discounts
I was looking at this "ultimate guide to what to buy every month of the year", and was curious about how the explanations behind different products seemed to contradict.

Mainly, it seems that both high demand and low demand could lead to lower prices. The low demand made more sense to me -- I understand why there's cheaper perfume after Valentine's day and cheaper camping gear as cold weather approaches. But then the guide also suggests that spring break causes luggage to go on sale, barbecue season leads to lower prices for barbecue supplies, and of course the start of Christmas shopping today (it's Black Friday where I am) means deals on electronics.

What determines which situation is at play? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.169.181.130 (talk) 14:21, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
 * The former would seem to be cases where someone is trying to get rid of excess stock which they no longer need due to lower demand and probable changes in how much they display and have on hand (i.e. clearance and similar sales). The later would seem to be when sellers (probably both retailers and manufacturers/suppliers) are competing against each other to get customers by offering items currently in high demand at lower prices. Nil Einne (talk) 17:44, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
 * For Black Friday electronics in particular, there's also a loss leader factor. Stick out a few flat-screens at ridiculous markdown, and you get people into your store to buy other goods at normal prices. Plus, people (think they) have to buy Christmas presents, so if they don't buy from you, they'll go to a rival. By only buying the marked-down goods, you effectively foil the loss-leader scheme. Smurrayinchester 18:06, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Percieved necessity seems like a solid determining factor. Only some folks go camping, but a lot of people barbecue. That might be the biggest distinction cause of all. 216.169.181.130 (talk) 22:16, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Pricing is an art, not a science.  The Chancellor of the Exchequer wanted to raise more money from Stamp Duty Land Tax so he upped the rate on homes over 950,000 pounds (not sure of the exact figure).   This sounds a lot, but ordinary terraced homes in inner London suburbs sell for more.   What happened was that purchasers demanded lower prices by way of compensation or didn't buy at all, so the tax take went down.   Likewise, retailers filled their stores with stock for Black Friday yesterday but nobody bought it (everyone was buying online). 79.78.126.19 (talk) 10:00, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Not quite sure how that is relevant. In a temperate country, everyone needs winter clothes but these will generally be cheapest on clearance after winter, if you can find your size. Even many of the examples you mentioned like many electronic items or luggage will be cheapest on clearance although these are less seasonal and more old models. Barbecue stuff is fairly seasonal and some places will definitely have clearance type sales after the season. And while camping gear may be cheapest just when it's considered out of season most places will have many sales during the season but places which do continue to stock camping stuff during the middle of winter will generally have no sales on the gear (except perhaps store wide ones) during winter after they're done with any clearance sales. Of course some sales may be a combination, e.g. in the just past Black Friday sales, Amazon US had the 32 GB Nexus 6 for $199 (less with certain discounts). Many people bought them including resellers planning to sell them on eBay, Craiglist or even back on Amazon. This sale was very likely a combination of a semi-clearance type sale (they still plan to stock it I'm sure but with the 6P and other newer phones it's no longer such a hot item) plus Christmas gadget sale. Nil Einne (talk) 13:33, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

How can Singaporeans studying in Western countries protect themselves from crime and racism?
I am Malay but some Chinese and Indian friends also consider studying overseas.

We heard racist hate crimes are common in the West, like Indian students killed in Australia, shooting blacks in the USA and attacks on Muslims in Europe. Our literature text by David Hare shows British assault Indians. Even worse is attacking Chinese mistaken for Japanese or Sikhs mistaken for Muslims.

International students, foreign workers and tourists also more likely general crime targets and more likely to face general racism. In Singapore, general crime rate is very low, racism is milder than the West and hate crimes almost never happen here. What we are taught to protect from crime in Singapore may not work for hate crimes and in other countries. Maybe can also compare racism levels in different Western countries and against each race in Singapore.

This is follow up for my previous question with more details. Also how to find old questions and the answers? Terima kasih untuk jawapan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 42.60.127.58 (talk) 15:09, 27 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Your old post is here: Reference_desk/Archives/Humanities/2015_November_18. You should write down the reference desk and date for your Q, to make it easier to find after it is archived.  The link to the archives is on the top of this page, on the right side.  Better yet, come back before they are archived (in about a week), then you won't have to search through the archives to find them, you can just do a Control F on this page, and type in your name to find it. StuRat (talk) 15:23, 27 November 2015 (UTC)


 * As for the Q, note that your perception of attacks on foreigners in the West is likely fueled by biased press coverage in your nation. It's possible more Singaporeans are killed in Singapore than abroad, but that just doesn't make the news, as it's not as shocking.  (Can anyone find the actual stats ?)  Based on this, it seems like Singapore is relatively safe overall, but Geylang is the most dangerous area.  Similarly, when traveling abroad, you need to avoid the most dangerous areas in those nations.  StuRat (talk) 15:27, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
 * We have Crime in Singapore, but that's just a stub at the moment. List of major crimes in Singapore is probably more useful.  For the OP's question, Racism by country might be a good place to start. Tevildo (talk) 15:38, 27 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Considering the Michael P. Fay story, I would think leaving Singapore would be liberating. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:10, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, because a single incident from 21 years ago is an infallible guide to the situation today.
 * ObPersonal, but when I lived in Singapore (having previously lived in Hong Kong)I found it pleasantly more orderly and cleaner than most other countries in the area I was aware of. When discussing the recent death of Harry Lee (Lee Kuan Yew) with my Father (admittedly a little right-of-centre in his views) he remarked that he would have liked Lee to have been made President of the UK for life :-) (yes, I know we don't actually have that position). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 185.74.232.130 (talk) 18:25, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
 * The recent Oliver Fricker case shows that nothing has changed. Of course it's "orderly", with the threat of such barbaric punishments. What the OP should do, once escaping the shackles of Singapore, is to find other Singapore-born persons at his new destination, who can clue him in on where not to go, and so on. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:14, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Barbaric? From our article on Birching:
 * "In Britain birching as a judicial penalty, in both its juvenile and adult versions, was abolished in 1948, although it was retained until 1962 as a punishment for violent breaches of prison discipline. The Isle of Man (a small island between Britain and Ireland with its own legal system as a British Crown dependency) caused a good deal of controversy by continuing to birch young offenders until 1976."
 * I can assure you that a significant minority of UK citizens would vote for birching being reinstated: I myself an undecided on the subject. From our Judicial corporal punishment article:
 * "In Delaware, the criminal code permitted floggings to occur until 1972. One of the major objections to judicial corporal punishment in the United States was that it was unpleasant to administer."
 * And from our Corporal punishment article:
 * "One reviewer for The Economist writes about Moskos's [2011] argument that "Perhaps the most damning evidence of the broken American prison system is that it makes a proposal to reinstate flogging appear almost reasonable. Almost."
 * How standards change when one is discussing distant foreigners' judicial practices. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 185.74.232.130 (talk) 20:04, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

I think for your peace of mind, you should stay in Singapore. Better safe than sorry. 175.45.116.59 (talk) 11:24, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

StuRat, thanks for explaining about the archives. Not only attacks on foreigners, but also violence against local minority races (blacks in the USA are not foreigners) seems common in the West, which also has racist parties and protects media which promote racial hatred, like Charlie.

There maybe biased press coverage in Singapore and equally, the West maybe biased against Singapore. Most Singaporeans support harsh punishments to keep Singapore safe. Only angry when innocent people get punished which is rare. Racist incidents are reported in the media, quickly deal with and scolded by Singaporeans. When terrorists want to attack Singapore, a few local Muslims found out and reported to police. So Chinese, Malays, Indians, even other races, we get along well and make good friends. Churches next to mosques and temples, void decks used for Chinese funerals and Malay weddings, we celebrate our cultural festivals with friends and neighbours from all races. Western countries cannot see or imagine this.

So why some Singaporeans want to study in the West? Because need very good grades to get into Singaporean universities and some want to study specialist courses that cannot get in Singaporean universities. Comparing racism levels in different Western countries and against each race in Singapore can help us choose universities. How to find out the more dangerous areas in a Western country? Even Geylang is quite safe to go with friends for meals. Cultural differences list can also be useful, for example, swastikas are common symbols in Indian religions but Nazi symbols in the West.


 * Re: "Churches next to mosques and temples", it's exactly the same in the US. For example, see List of mosques in the United States (that's just the more notable ones).  This isn't reported in Singapore, however.  An American Muslim recently went abroad, and Muslims in other nations were shocked to find out that he and most Muslims live in peace in the US, despite all the news they read saying US Muslims are constantly under attack.  On a personal note, my brother (not a Muslim) has a Muslim friend, and my brother even went so far as to build a prayer shed for him where he can go to pray, while visiting my brother's house.


 * As for how to figure out which areas are dangerous, a Google Street View might help. Do you see abandoned buildings, graffiti, and the type of businesses you find in slums, like liquor stores, pawn shops, payday loan (high interest/short term) businesses ?  Also stay away from any area with signs saying "LIVE NUDE GIRLS" (or "DEAD NUDE GIRLS", for that matter). StuRat (talk) 13:08, 30 November 2015 (UTC)


 * I wonder if the OP was truly interested in the answers to the question or if they just wanted to make a statement about the "racist" West, Charlie Hebdo, etc. Their latest post came only a few days after the Paris (Bataclan, etc.) Islamist killings in November in Paris. Similarly shortly after the Paris (Charlie Hebdo and HyperCacher) Islamist killings in January a user calling themself "Orang Perancis Adalah Perkauman" (Malay for "French people are racist") posted this. That user was blocked probably because of the offensive nature of their username. In the January post they claimed to be non-Muslim while here they claim to be Malay, hence probably Muslim, but given the apparent similarity of purpose, I wonder if they're not the same person. Contact Basemetal   here  15:07, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
 * It's hard to imagine an IP with a grand total of 2 edits doing anything in bad faith. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:56, 29 November 2015 (UTC)


 * I really don't think these contributions are in bad faith. They sound just like they come from a Singaporean who feels they need to study in the West but is anxious about coming to a country that would have a somewhat higher crime rate generally, and where they might feel out of place and vulnerable to racism. I think the only way through for the OP is to talk to Singaporeans who have studied in the West and come back safely in one piece. Maybe through their college or a students' union. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:27, 29 November 2015 (UTC)


 * I agree that the proper place to discuss repeated posting of the same complex loaded questions of the form "racism in Australia", "police brutality in the US" and "bigotry in Europe" belong on the talk page, or perhaps as another request for an SPI Sockpuppet_investigations/Bowei_Huang_2/Archive. At this point maybe we should just let the matter rest. μηδείς (talk) 03:09, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

StuRat, thanks for your advice on how to find out the more dangerous places. You have a wonderful brother! Good that USA now less biased against Muslims compared to Europe. This is useful to decide where to study if need to study overseas. Of course, USA much bigger than Singapore, so less likely that worship places for different religions are very near each other (in Singapore, often just five minutes walk away). The other replies only about punishments in Singapore and accuse me about bad things that I never do, which do not give me useful information and show Western bias. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 42.60.127.58 (talk) 00:00, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Rosamond by Mary J Holmes
We have a book by Mary J Holmes. The title is Rosamond. Do you have any information on this book that would help me to determine it's value? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.114.153.91 (talk) 17:45, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
 * It is likely to depend where you live, but if you log into eBay and search for the book, you can display completed listings to see how much it has sold for there. I'm not posting a link, because I think this only works if you're currently logged in.--Phil Holmes (talk) 18:02, 27 November 2015 (UTC)


 * For interest, presumably Mary Jane Holmes? However, that article doesn't list all her titles and doesn't mention Rosamund. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 185.74.232.130 (talk) 18:15, 27 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Our Mary Jane Holmes article doesn't mention Rosamund, but DOES mention Rosamond, which is the book the OP was enquiring about. DuncanHill (talk) 18:38, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
 * D'oh! {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 185.74.232.130 (talk) 14:44, 30 November 2015 (UTC)


 * AbeBooks is another site which should give you some idea how much the book is worth. It seems to have been published in a number of editions over the years, so you'd need to check against when your copy was published and by whom, and also the condition of the book. --Nicknack009 (talk) 19:05, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Political font
This kind of font has been used in political banners in Italy since the 60's/'70s, especially by far right protesters. Is there anyone who knows something more about the history of this particular script?--Carnby (talk) 18:41, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Although I am not an expert in fonts, when I saw the image, I was immediately reminded of the pre-World War II Italian Futurist movement in art, which was closely associated with Mussolini's fascist movement. Fortunato Depero, Filippo Tommaso Marinetti and Giacomo Balla were among the designers and artists of this school. The Futurist font is reminiscent though not identical. P22 Il Futurismo is a contemporary version of a Depero design. Sorry that I can't identify the specific font, but I am confident that it is in this broad family of fonts. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  06:09, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Pinging . Cullen328  Let's discuss it  06:10, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the hint! I was able to find a version of the font which is called Ultras liberi ("Free supporters"): the name points out to soccer fans (it is a well known fact that most soccer fans in Italy are far right parties' supporters). Here's a little more (in Italian).--Carnby (talk) 13:51, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
 * , one font website categorizes it as "Futurist - Retro". Here's an article in Italian in Vice that discusses the origins of the font. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  19:30, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

What kind of Atheist am I?
I visited the article on atheism and could not find an answer to the question below.

1. I am absolutely certain that there is no god 2. I do not know from my education or learning that this is so 3. I come to this position logically, though I cannot be certain that my logic is correct.

Nevertheless, I have no doubt at all that there is no god of any kind.

The definition of "strong" atheism seems to imply that one has learned or been convinced that there is no god. Neither is the case for me.

So what kind of atheist am I? 74.211.8.160 (talk) 20:37, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, from our article Atheism, "Writers disagree on how best to define and classify atheism", so there isn't a "correct" label for your position, and your personal choice of label is the one others should respect. That being said, which of these statements is closer to your personal view?


 * 1) "I positively assert that God does not exist."
 * 2) "There are no grounds for asserting that God exists, therefore it is irrational to do so."
 * If it's 1, others would agree if you described yourself as a "strong atheist". If 2, "weak atheist" might be a better term.  Our article also makes the distinction between "explicit" and "implicit" atheism, but your statements above are, I think, inconsistent with implicit atheism.  Incidentally, Logic might also be a useful article; if you can express your position as a deduction from a set of axioms, you can, at least, check that your logic is valid.  Whether your axioms are true is another matter. Tevildo (talk) 21:27, 27 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Words are tools made by men to shape and communicate their thoughts. It is, ironically, an almost theological mindset that worries about terms as if they have some import beyond that of one's own usage.  If necessary, one could say one is a convinced, certain, confirmed, reasoned or determined atheist, or an atheist by conviction.  Which term is best will depend on the context.
 * Presumably you don't intend to go around volunteering the fact of your atheism to people, or to nail it on the front door of your local church? So if the subject comes up, it will most likely be because someone asks, in which case the plain term atheist is fine, and you can explain further if asked.  If a missionary comes knocking on your door, "I am a confirmed atheist" should be fine.
 * But one is not going to score points with God by ticking off the "proper" term for atheist, since He already sees exactly what you feel in your heart. So don't worry about it too much.  In the meantime there are various online thesauruses, you can search for one of the words used above along with "synonym" at google and find some good terms. μηδείς (talk) 21:57, 27 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Fortunately the OP already knows there is no God, so they don't have to worry at all. Adam Bishop (talk) 11:32, 28 November 2015 (UTC)


 * He has said that, but his worry that it be worded properly brings to mind the homoousian versus homoiousian schisms, and the (especially Karaite) Jewish, Islamic, and Evangelical concerns with textual infallibility. μηδείς (talk) 05:49, 29 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Point number 3 seems to contradict point number 1. If you're not certain your logic is correct, how can you be certain your conclusion is correct? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:59, 27 November 2015 (UTC)


 * This is a difficult one.  The OP says that (s)he is absolutely certain that there is no god, but also that (s)he has not been convinced that there is no god.   I would say that (s)he is an agnostic.   So why not attend a church service or two, learn a bit about Christianity and rethink your position? 79.78.126.19 (talk) 10:10, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Or a synagogue...or a mosque...or any other place of worship? Or none at all. Why should they rethink their position? Would you? Adam Bishop (talk) 11:32, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

"I do not know from my education or learning that this is so...I cannot be certain that my logic is correct. Nevertheless, I have no doubt..." Sounds like faith to me.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 10:18, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
 * "I come to this position logically, though I cannot be certain that my logic is correct" sounds purely scientific thinking to me. Where does your logic come from anyway? Isn't it the result of your entire history of learning since you were born? Akseli9 (talk) 11:29, 28 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Why did you leave out the last part? The part where the OP said "I have no doubt" and "I am absolutely certain" ... - Lindert (talk) 13:05, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Indeed, absolute certainty is not scientific. Mingmingla (talk) 19:37, 28 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Being "absolutely certain", while still hedging one's bets about the basis of that certainty, sounds like doubt to me. Doubt leads to questioning ... and here we are ...  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:34, 28 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Note that the OP posed the debate-inducing question and then disappeared. This type of atheist is known as a "drive-by" atheist. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:54, 29 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Agreed with Bugs. Saying that you are certain and have come to a position by logic, while admitting you may have made a flaw in your logic, is simply admitting the possibility of error. It's the opposite of childishness, wilfull ignorance, delusion, or zealotry. The fact that the OP says he was not convinced seems to imply he meant he was not convinced by others.  But I am not sure there's any point in further dancing with angels unless the OP wants to come back and clarify questions that have been brought up. μηδείς (talk) 19:00, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

666 666 issue
Hello, I would like to know the following please:


 * 1) Is 'music' making and 'selling' is an Ideolotary /worship issue?
 * 2) Is creating 'animation' and 'selling' is an Ideolotary /worship issue?

Note: I know that being in a television without promoting God is. A clarification for the two Bulletins Numbered list will suffice aviodant.

Space Ghost (talk) 21:00, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
 * See Idolatry, but that question can't be answered without knowing which religious viewpoint to take. Religious music and Religious art might be useful, as well. Tevildo (talk) 21:40, 27 November 2015 (UTC)


 * The answer will depend on the dogma of your particular sect. But the word is 'idolatry', and has nothing to do with 'ideology'. Personally I do not think either of the activities you describe could plausibly be confused with worshipping inanimate objects, but opinions vary. AlexTiefling (talk) 22:14, 27 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Also, how does the year 666 figure into this? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:56, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Number of the Beast if anyone needs the correct link. Tevildo (talk) 23:33, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Sowi
 * Thanks fellas. I'll read through. Regards. -- Space Ghost (talk) 18:23, 28 November 2015 (UTC)


 * I figured it was about the Number of the Beast, not a year, but I still can't connect that with the question about music/animation making and selling.
 * And what does "being in a television" mean?
 * What's a Bulletin in this context?
 * What does "aviodant" mean?
 * Maybe the OP can restate their question in something approaching English as she is spoke. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:11, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry! I had to think quickly to write this post. In other words, I was not thinking properly before writing this post. Sorry. -- Space Ghost (talk) 18:35, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Forget the apologies; try explaining. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:51, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Okay:
 * I read ideal worship is bad so I thought its ideolatory because I read somewhere in an article the word “idolatry”. I wasn’t sure which word it was because the ‘red line under a word’ appears whenever I try to write something meaningful in WP.
 * I got the word avoidant from google translate. I thought the word suffice alone is rude because the villan from the Matrix movie uses it…I guess using the word avoidant is along was wrong…
 * Guys, to be honest, I tried to act smart with my English words in this post. Please excuse me, most of you know that I have English problem, so please don’t mind… You guys are the only people I speak to, and this is the only place I can try to write big words I’ve learnt… Please help me to get better if you can by pointing out the mistakes, so that I know my carelessness. I try to ensure whatever I write is clear enough; all comes from my heart/mind.
 * Space Ghost (talk) 19:03, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
 * OR, but I had more than one Muslim tell me on the Internet that music was "haram" Asmrulz (talk) 01:35, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Procol Harum? --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  05:39, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
 * There's also some information at Islamic music.Sjö (talk) 15:13, 1 December 2015 (UTC)