Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2015 November 6

= November 6 =

Baby orcs?
In The Hobbit they make a reference to Goblin-imps, on page 106. What are these? The article on Orcs does not mention this, as far as I'm aware. Are they baby Orcs or what? Megaraptor12345 (talk) 11:23, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
 * See Orc (Middle-earth). In a 1963 letter, Tolkien confirms that there were female orcs, although there are few details about orc tribal structures in the published text.  There's your "Goblin-imp" reference, and Bolg is described as "son of Azog" in a footnote. Tevildo (talk) 12:08, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Tevildo. I never knew that there was a page for Orcs of Middle-earth! But one more question. Do they ever give the real name of the Great Goblin?Megaraptor12345 (talk) 14:47, 6 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Not as far as I could search. On our list of Middle-earth Orcs, the Great Goblin's section writes: "In letters written later in his life Tolkien suggested that the Great Goblin and other highly influential leaders among the orcs may not have been mortal orcs, but lesser Maiar who had taken orkish form, or "hröa"." (See also fëa and hröa). ---Sluzzelin talk  14:58, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Buying books by width
I need to re-read the entire Harry Potter books, but have long ago given away my copy. Shelf space in my apartment is limited, and as these are fairly wide books, I would be keen to buy the narrowest possible edition(s) - ie: ideally tall copies with small text / thin paper. However, I can't see any way of searching by width on any book-selling websites. How could I go about finding the narrowest copy? Thanks.

Octavious Rind (talk) 16:23, 6 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Amazon almost always gives the weight and dimensions of works that are still in or have recently been in print, look under the product details section, for example, about 1/4 of the way down this page the boxed paperback set is listed as 5 x 8 x 8.5 inches and 8 lbs. μηδείς (talk) 16:52, 6 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Oh, bang head against brick wall. Tall books may  take up less linear yardage but that reduces the number of shelves between floor and ceiling which reduces the yardage of shelf space. I have the same problem myself but placing my rule against my important reference books they are no more than 10½ high. (The encyclopedia Britannica is taller by an inch and the World atlas it taller still). Books on computer software and technology are shorter (no taller than 9).  Poetry and literature are shorter still whilst  my books on art are often ginormous.  So, books that are outsized go onto the shelves in my bedroom. I arrange them on  the Dewey  System. Therefore,  if a book is not on one shelf I know and can instantly find it on the out sized shelving.--Aspro (talk) 21:07, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Hello old boy! Is there any reason you couldn't just buy an E-reader? You can fit thousands of books on one and with expansion cards thousands more. Chin chin! Quintessential British Gentleman (talk) 01:35, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

The '48
In 1825, Lord Eldon, the Duke of Newcastle, the Duke of York and "twenty-one other rejoicing Protestants" drank to "the '48, the year 1688, and the glorious and immortal memory of William III". (Here's our source, adequately confirmed by other modern and contemporary sources). Am I right in thinking that "the '48" is a reference to the Regicide of Charles I of England (30 January 1649 O.S.)? More importantly, is this term used anywhere apart from reports of the 1825 toast, so that it should be included in 48 (number) and similar pages? Tevildo (talk) 18:54, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
 * The official end of the English Civil War would have occurred in 1648, with several events. While there was no formal treaty or declaration or event (which is why 30 January 1649 get's tossed around as a date, being that the Death of Charles is easily markable moment), England effectively became a republic before Charles was executed, with the Pride's Purge removing the last vestiges of Royal sympathy in Parliament.  The actual acts to declare the Republic, abolish the monarchy, and try and execute Charles took some time to pass through official channels, but if one was trying to decide why '48 would have been an important year for the Republic, it would be Pride's Purge, in my estimation.  -- Jayron 32 19:07, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Another possibility: 48 is a number and not a year. The phrasing "The 48" implies he's counting something, not abbreviating a year.  Since England has 48 counties (or did until the modern administrative divisions were established in the 20th century), perhaps "The 48" was a fanciful way of referring to England as a whole.  -- Jayron 32 19:14, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Found this from The Quarterly Review referring to the incident, which came after a Catholic Relief Bill being blocked in the House of Lords by a majority of 48 a week before the event. That seems to fit the bill for the meaning of the number. FlowerpotmaN &middot;( t ) 19:32, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
 * There are probably lots more sources, but from an article on the UCC website on the history of Catholic Emancipation: "Sir Francis Burdett’s Emancipation Bill of 1825 was passed by the House of Commons but rejected by the Lords, by 178 to 130."   FlowerpotmaN &middot;( t ) 19:47, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Certainly, the Quarterly Review text would appear to support the "majority" meaning, and I note that Hilton's text has 'the' 48 (not the '48), so the transcription of the symbol in our article on Eldon as an apostrophe rather than a quotation mark is probably wrong.  Perhaps a footnote in the Eldon article is the way to go?  Tevildo (talk) 20:01, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I've added the references to the article. Tevildo (talk) 20:45, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
 * A further rendition of the same letter is in The Public and Private Life of Lord Chancellor Eldon (1844) p. 554 without any apostrophes or speech marks. On the previous page, Eldon mentions "the glorious 48". Alansplodge (talk) 03:08, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Did Widow Conservation exist in Switzerland and the Netherlands?
Widow Conservation was a common practice for the widows of vicars in Germany and Scandinavia in the early modern age, but this was not all of Protestant Europe, so I began to wonder about Switzerland and the Netherlands. Did they have the same custom, or did they provide for the widows of protestant vicars some other way? Thank you--Aciram (talk) 20:35, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Did Tolkien ever write a story, poem, or anything else from an orc's point of view?
I would just like to know. ( Sorry for asking so many questions about Orcs ) Megaraptor12345 (talk) 23:05, 6 November 2015 (UTC)


 * If you were truly sorry, you'd make an act of contrition, say 10 Hail Marys, and make a definite commitment never to repeat the sin. :)  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  02:32, 7 November 2015 (UTC)


 * No, he didn't other than as necessary parts of the hero's adventures (like the kidnapping of Merry and Pippin, and the fight in the tower over Bilbo's possessions. I have read all of his published works set in Middle Earth, including the posthumous History of at least twice if not five times.  The closest he comes to writing from a monstrous character's point of view is with Gollum, who serves as a sort of Judas figure.  One of Tolkien's central themes is that evil cannot create, only corrupt.  Stylistically he is strongly set in the Romantic era, even the era of the heroic epic, and his Catholic sensibilities would be offended.  He didn't do satire, or anti-heroism.  Contrast this with Lewis's Screwtape Letters. μηδείς (talk) 03:14, 7 November 2015 (UTC)


 * And some of the "good" characters created poems (since Megaraptor mentioned poems) from their point of view of what an evil character's point of view might be, such as the famous and silly "Troll sat alone on his seat of bone" (composed by Sam, I think). Well, trolls aren't orcs, but the troll does have the last laugh ("... and he's still there /With the bone he boned from its owner"). ---Sluzzelin talk  09:04, 7 November 2015 (UTC)


 * It should also be mentioned that as far as I know, all of Tolkien's works are written from the third-person perspective, hence characters who have become corrupted by pride (Fëanor) or hatred (Mîm) do speak, but their actions are all set in wider events, and history as we read it in Tolkien is written by the heroes or their kin. The Narn i Chin Hurin is quite tragic, and features a speaking dragon, but we are supposed to identify with the tragic protagonists, not the evil antagonists. You could argue that work is Gothic, but I think it is closer to Greek Tragedy. μηδείς (talk) 17:57, 7 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Frodo's possessions maybe? —Tamfang (talk) 02:22, 8 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Can you expand upon that Redbeard? I'm interested in what it is you are implying. μηδείς (talk) 06:31, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
 * In your first response above, you referred to "the fight in the tower over Bilbo's possessions". If you were referring to the Orcs' self-destructive battle in Cirith Ungol, "Bilbo's" was a slip for "Frodo's". (Although the mithril corselet was once Bilbo's, he had given it to Frodo.) Deor (talk) 10:28, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Good catch, yes, I was imagining Bilbo from the Rankin and Bass animation when I wrote that. μηδείς (talk) 17:17, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Quite all right; I was just explaining what Tamfang meant. In his absolutely stupendous Guide to Supernatural Fiction, E. F. Bleiler makes the same slip, referring to Frodo as "Bilbo" throughout the entry on The Lord of the Rings. Deor (talk) 17:35, 8 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Not Tolkien, but you might be interested in The_Last_Ringbearer, which very much is written from Mordor's perspective. SemanticMantis (talk) 20:45, 9 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks, SemanticMantis, for that link, and thanks everybody, for your answers, including yours,  JackofOz .Megaraptor12345 (talk) 10:31, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * You're welcome, my son/daughter. Go in peace, and sin no more.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  10:59, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

The taxis in Benoît Brisefer
In Benoît Brisefer (Steven Strong) comic album "Les Taxis rouges" by Peyo, what marque are the taxis? Snowsuit Wearer (talk&#124;contribs) 23:43, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
 * According to this site, the cars used in the film were 1960 Buick Electra 255s. The ones in the original comic don't seem to be any real model, but they resemble the AMC Ambassador and Dodge Dart. Tevildo (talk) 12:48, 7 November 2015 (UTC)