Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2015 October 29

= October 29 =

Alfred E. Neuman and Kladderadatsch
As described and depicted in our article on Kladderadatsch, the magazine featured a grinning boy on its covers (not always, but often, see picture posted in this thread, as well as, e.g.,, , etc. ... A grinning imp in shifting guises featured on the cover of a satirical magazine, ... sound familiar? Of course I was reminded of Mad's Alfred E. Neuman, but found absolutely nothing about any connection or acknowledged influence anywhere. Can anyone here find anything?

Second question: Are there other older satirical magazines that included a mascot in different situations and personifications on their cover? Thank you in advance! ---Sluzzelin talk  00:35, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
 * See Punch (magazine), which dates to a few years before Kladderadatsch, which used Punch, a well known satirical character (see Punch and Judy as well) as its mascot. The Punch character appeared on many (if not all, the vast majority) of its covers.  -- Jayron 32 00:49, 29 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Jayron. ---Sluzzelin talk  20:57, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Louisiana Purchase and West Florida
In 1810, James Madison proclaimed:
 * "Whereas the territory south of the Mississippi Territory and eastward of the river Mississippi, and extending to the river Perdido, of which possession was not delivered to the United States in pursuance of the treaty concluded at Paris on the 30th April, 1803, has at all times, as is well known, been considered and claimed by them as being within the colony of Louisiana conveyed by the said treaty in the same extent that it had in the hands of Spain and that it had when France originally possessed it;"

So it would appear that he considered West Florida (to the Perdido River) to be part of the Louisiana Purchase. I can find virtually no maps or other literature that indicate this; they all stop the Purchase at the Mississippi River. Should that part of West Florida be considered disputed territory from 1803 to 1810? Or did most at the time consider it simply foreign territory? I understand that territorial ownership way back then could be confusing and poorly demarcated, but West Florida is a pretty easy chunk to figure out if you think you own it or not. --Golbez (talk) 11:57, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
 * See West Florida Controversy, to wit "Before 1762 France had owned and administered the land west of the Perdido River as part of La Louisiane. In 1762 France secretly ceded its lands west of the Mississippi River plus the land west of the Perdido River to Spain. Excluding the island of New Orleans, the area between the Mississippi and Perdido Rivers became part of Spanish Florida." and later " When France then sold the Louisiana Territory to the United States in 1803, a dispute arose between Spain and the United States regarding whether West Florida was part of the Louisiana Purchase. The United States laid claim to the region of West Florida between the Mississippi and Perdido Rivers, asserting it had initially been part of French Louisiana. Spain held that such a claim was baseless." The dispute resulted in the short-lived putative Republic of West Florida, which was fully annexed by the U.S.  All the articles I linked cover the background in more detail, and have external links and references to follow if you want to read more.  Territorial_evolution_of_the_United_States, on the entry April 30, 1803 specifically notes the dispute, and all maps associated with the article, from April 30, 1803 until its resolution in the Adams–Onís Treaty in 1819 note the land as disputed. (it's colored pink).  The modern day land covered by this dispute is known informally in Louisiana as the Florida Parishes. -- Jayron 32 12:19, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I wrote the territorial evolution article. :P I'm trying to improve it. --Golbez (talk) 18:02, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

Peter Fleming's travelling companion - a tall Lord in Manchukuo
Reading Peter Fleming's One's Company, he mentions a companion "M". M is "a member of the House of Lords... 29 years old and tall for his age", and had "some sort of journalistic pretext for his presence in Manchukuo". The journey took place in 1933. I would like to know who M was. DuncanHill (talk) 13:50, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
 * You could look for a category intersection between Category:1904 births and Category:Peers of the United Kingdom or something like that, it may get you started. -- Jayron 32 16:29, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
 * a definitely incomplete list follows. Peer & 1904 & not dead by 1933. I suppose it could be further refined by date that each was seated (would have to be before 1933). How would one identify him. "M" could be a complete red-herring.


 * Arthur Windham Baldwin 1904-1976
 * 3rd Earl Baldwin of Bewdley


 * John Patrick Douglas Balfour 1904-1976
 * 3rd Baron Kinross


 * Percy Ronald Gardner Bernard 1904-1979
 * 5th & last Earl of Bandon


 * Roderick Blunk-Mackenzie 1904-1989
 * 4th Earl of Cromartie


 * Chandos Sydney Cedric Brudenell-Bruce 1904-1974
 * 7th Marquess of Ailesbury


 * Adam Duncan Chetwynd 1904-1965
 * 9th Viscount Chetwynd


 * David McAdam Eccles 1904-1999
 * 1st Viscount Eccles


 * Oliver Thomas Farrer 1904-1954
 * 4th Baron Farrer


 * Charles Fitzroy 1904-1989
 * 5th Baron Southampton


 * Frederick Charles Gordon-Lennox 1904-1989
 * aka “Freddie March”
 * 9th Duke of Richmond


 * Richard Haden Guest 1904-1987
 * 3rd Baron Haden-Guest


 * James Edward Hamilton 1904-1979
 * 4th Duke of Abercorn


 * (Julian Stanhope) Theodore Hawke 1904-1992
 * 10th Baron Hawke, of Towton


 * Mervyn Horatio Herbert 1904-1943
 * 17th Baron Darcy de Knayth


 * Alan Tindal Lennox-Boyd 1904-1983
 * 1st Viscount Boyd of Merton


 * Alfred Sydney Frederick Maitland 1904-1968
 * 16th Earl of Lauderdale


 * Roger Mellor Makins 1904-1996
 * 1st Baron Sherfield


 * (Robert) John Napier 1904-1987
 * 5th Baron Napier of Magdala


 * Matthew Henry Hubert Ponsonby 1904-1976
 * 2nd Baron Ponsonby of Shulbrede


 * John Gilbert Ramsay 1904-1950
 * 15th Earl of Dalhousie


 * William Thomas George “Tom” Wentworth-Fitzwilliam 1904-1979
 * 10th and last Earl Fitzwilliam


 * Solly Zuckerman 1904-1993
 * life peer Baron Zuckerman created 1971

- Nunh-huh 22:31, 30 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks, well it's a start! Obviously it's not Solly. I suppose I was hoping that perhaps it had been mentioned in an obit or biography or the like which someone here might have read. A 1933 or '34 Whitaker's would have a list of peers, which could help. DuncanHill (talk) 01:31, 31 October 2015 (UTC)


 * I took the liberty of adding links to the list (and correcting a spelling or two); these enabled me to look easily and find that only Dalhousie, Bandon and Darcy had inherited their titles by 1933. —Tamfang (talk) 09:00, 31 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Maybe we shouldn't assume that Fleming got it right about "member of the House of Lords": if M were e.g. an Irish peer, or an heir apparent to an earldom, he'd have a lordly title but not be a member. —Tamfang (talk) 02:06, 1 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Hmmm, well Bandon got married in Kenya in February 1933 so seems unlikely on that count. Can't find much about Dalhousie. Darcy de Knayth has a forename starting with an M and looks possible. I've considered Tamfang's suggestion, but I think Fleming was unlikely to make a mistake about something like that. DuncanHill (talk) 13:47, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Re Dalhousie: My 1949 Burke's (p. 534) says biographically "B.A. Ch. Ch. Oxford, served in Scots Guards 1925-30; elected Hon. Pres. of Angus Unionist Assoc. 1937; b. 25 July 1904; s. his father as 15th Earl 1928". No marriage, his brother Simon as heir presumptive.  Probably not the guy.  Traipsing across Asia and then no war record? Don't think so.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:30, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Pretty much what it says online.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:34, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Here's what I've found so far, italicizing the non-House lords: [removed and integrated below]—Tamfang (talk) 22:00, 1 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Butler was Earl of Carrick, not Earl of Carrick! DuncanHill (talk) 22:15, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Oops, thank you, I've made the correction. —Tamfang (talk) 01:38, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Here's the whole batch. I haven't looked into the possibility that M was a bishop. —Tamfang (talk) 02:25, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Douglas Douglas-Hamilton, Marquess of Douglas and Clydesdale, 1903–1973, future 14th Duke of Hamilton
 * Edward Chichester, 6th Marquess of Donegall, 1903–1975, succeeded 1904
 * James Hamilton, Marquess of Hamilton, 1904–1979, future 4th Duke of Abercorn
 * Cedric Brudenell-Bruce, Earl of Cardigan, 1904–1974, future 7th Marquess of Ailesbury
 * Frederick Gordon-Lennox, Earl of March and Kinrara, 1904–1989, future 9th Duke of Richmond
 * John Gilbert Ramsay, 15th Earl of Dalhousie, 1904–1950, succeeded 1928
 * Theobald Walter Somerset Henry Butler, 8th Earl of Carrick, 1903–1957, succeeded 1931
 * Percy Bernard, 5th Earl of Bandon, 1904–1979, succeeded 1924 (peerage of Ireland)
 * Mark Everard Pepys, 6th Earl of Cottenham, 1903–1943, succeeded 1922
 * Piers Henry Augustine Butler, 16th Viscount Mountgarret, 1903–1966, succeeded 1918
 * Richard Dawnay, 10th Viscount Downe, 1903–1965, succeeded 1931
 * Arthur Gore, Viscount Sudley, 1903–1958, future 7th Earl of Arran (peerage of Ireland)
 * George Loftus, Viscount Loftus, 1903–1969, future 7th Marquess of Ely
 * Mervyn Herbert, Viscount Clive, 17th Baron Darcy de Knayth, 1904–1943, succeeded 1929 (also heir-apparent to 4th Earl of Powis)
 * William Lygon, Viscount Elmley, 1903–1979, future 8th Earl Beauchamp
 * John Rous, Viscount Dunwich, 1903–1983, future 4th Earl of Stradbroke
 * Robert Cecil Byng, Viscount Enfield, 1904–1984, future 7th Earl of Strafford
 * William Smith, 3rd Viscount Hambleden, 1903–1948, succeeded 1928
 * Andrew Charles Gerald Thesiger, 2nd Viscount Chelmsford, 1903–1970, succeeded 1933
 * Charles Walter James Dormer, 15th Baron Dormer (1903–1975), succeeded 1922
 * Alec Douglas-Home, Lord Dunglass, 1903–1995, future 14th Earl of Home
 * John Nicholas Horace Lysaght, 7th Baron Lisle, 1903–1997, succeeded 1919; peerage of Ireland
 * Nigel Reginald Victor Glyn, 5th Baron Wolverton, 1904–1986, succeeded 1932
 * George William Lawies Jackson, 3rd Baron Allerton, 1903–1991, succeeded 1925
 * Charles John Wilson, 3rd Baron Nunburnholme, 1904–1974, succeeded 1924
 * Charles Swinfen Eady, 2nd Baron Swinfen, 1904–1977, succeeded 1919