Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2016 August 20

= August 20 =

Popes alive at the same time
Currently there are two Popes (one former Pope) alive at the same time. How many times has this happened in this past? Have there ever been 3 or more alive at the same time? DTLHS (talk) 18:20, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
 * See Papal resignation and Antipope. Accurate figures aren't available, as the historical record isn't perfect, and, at various times, there have been disagreements about who is actually the Pope.  In 1418, there were four living people who could be described as "Popes" - Gregory XII, John XXIII, Martin V, and Benedict XIII - but only two of them (Gregory and Martin) are now recognized as legitimate. Tevildo (talk) 20:52, 20 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Ah, yes, back when popes were named Martin. That stopped a few centuries before Jews stopped being named Adolph. Evan (talk&#124;contribs) 10:41, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Presumably named after Saint Martin of Tours rather than Martin Luther, if I'm understanding your joke correctly. Alansplodge (talk) 11:11, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Presumably, since Martin V died in 1431, half a century before Luther was born, if I'm interpreting your highly necessary clarification correctly. --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106; &#x1D110;&#x1d107; 15:21, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Presumably, the point being that once Martin Luther became known, it was unlikely that any subsequent pope would be named Martin. And Harpo Marx was originally named Adolph, but changed his name to Arthur - not because of Hitler, but because of anti-German sentiment, during World War I. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:09, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Presumably, Bugs is correct. Forgive me, I didn't mean to provoke an interpretive commentary of Talmudic proportions with my cryptic half-joke. Carry on. :) Evan (talk&#124;contribs) 21:02, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I'll get my coat... Alansplodge (talk) 21:59, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * This has nothing to do with anti - German sentiment.  He just didn't like the name "Adolph".   There's no suggestion that he was unhappy with the name "Marx" as he might have been under this theory during World War I after the Bolsheviks took power in Russia - America was the Communists' worst enemy (see Joseph McCarthy). 86.128.233.253 (talk) 00:36, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

The situation with Harpo's name is mentioned in the last paragraph of this section Harpo Marx. I don't know if the source used is available online to check what is written there but I do have a vague memory about a PBS documentary (made in the 80s) that confirmed this. Dusty and faulty memory banks are always subject to being wrong of course. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 00:51, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Reviews give his name as Harpo in 1913. 86.128.233.253 (talk) 00:56, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
 * ...in 1913 Joseph McCarthy only reached the age of 5 and it would be 4 years before the Bolsheviks revolted. AllBestFaith (talk) 13:07, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
 * It may be that the anti-German sentiment (which was real, in general) was not the reason Harpo changed his birth name. As for the Marx part, Karl was dead over 30 years before Lenin fomented his revolution in Russia. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:26, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Historical boundary between County Down and County Antrim in the Belfast (Northern Ireland) area
I am writing some articles about the Belfast and County Down Railway. I am specifically trying to find out if the area of the Queen's Quay, Belfast area was ever in County Antrim, since 1840. All of the maps I can find so far indicate that the boundary in the area is currently River Lagan, with County Antrim to the west and County Down to the East. for example, zooming in this map from the Ordnance Survey of Northern Ireland (OSNI) Open Data Portal, clearly shows the modern day boundary at the river (approx 54.60257°N, -5.91952°W). I am having trouble finding maps from the early or mid 1800's to see if it was ever different.

I do find articles on Wikipedia what would seem to indicate different information. for example, the previously mentioned Queen's Quay, Belfast shows it in County Antrim (by way of one of its categories) and Template:Belfast and County Down Railway shows the border in a wildly different place. My suspicion is that the confusion lies in the fact that Belfast spans the two counties, but the authors have assumed that all of Belfast is within County Antrim. Thanks --Arg342 (talk) 20:13, 20 August 2016 (UTC)


 * This map from 1794 isn't greatly detailed but shows the boundary where you'd expect along the Lagan. There are further maps from the 18th and 19th centuries available at http://www.oldmapsonline.org/map/rumsey/2310.016. I'd be inclined to agree with your analysis of the situation. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 21:03, 20 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Two points. Belfast is, officially and for postal purposes, considered to be in County Antrim, even though it has expanded across the river into County Down. Postal addresses in suburbs that were once separate towns in County Down but are now part of Belfast, are officially in County Antrim, because Belfast is officially in County Antrim. Secondly, the traditional county borders have no political, governmental or administrative meaning - local government is organised on a different basis now - so it really doesn't matter. --Nicknack009 (talk) 00:10, 21 August 2016 (UTC)


 * I'd disagree with the technicalities of that first part (that Belfast is 'officially' in Antrim), Nicknack009. The Royal Mail no longer (since 1996) uses counties to direct deliveries, so you could address post to Belfast County Antrim, Belfast County Down, or even Belfast County Fermanagh and still have it arrive safely as long as the house number and postcode are correct. The truth is that parts of Belfast being 'in' County Antrim or County Down has been entirely notional since the Local Government (Ireland) Act 1898 which transferred parts of Antrim and Down to the newly created Belfast County Borough. Since then Belfast has been a separate unitary authority with its own city council. It might be commonly believed, or convenient to use the notion, that County Antrim was expanded to cover the parts of Belfast south of the Lagan, and indeed I've seen discussions on various forums that hold this to be true, but in fact Belfast is no longer part of either county. The crucial date for Arg342's purposes is 12th August 1898. Before that date the border was the Lagan. After that date Belfast was a unitary authority and the river had no relevance to local government boundaries. Therefore, Queen's Quay is and always has been in the area that was part of County Down, but since 1898 it has been part of Belfast City, and not either county. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 10:04, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Some information is at Counties of Northern Ireland: "The six administrative counties and two county boroughs remain in use for some purposes, including car number plates. They were also used as postal counties by the Royal Mail for sorting purposes until their abolition in 1996". Alansplodge (talk) 11:05, 21 August 2016 (UTC)