Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2016 August 22

= August 22 =

Pat DeWine
The page says he has 3 children.

I understand he has three children with Karen, his ex-wife. (He divorced her while she was pregnant with their third child.)

I also read he has at least one child with Betty Hull, his former campaign manager and the women he shacked up with either before or after his divorce. The timing is a bit dicey.

He is currently married to Rhonda Dayton DeWine, and, therefore, has at least two step children.

His parental issues could surely be included. Particularly, how many children he has, including steps, when, and with whom. Seems some of his children have been lost in the shuffle.

A better researcher then I is need to verify and corroborate the details.

71.66.99.175 (talk) 09:48, 22 August 2016 (UTC)P`tar


 * I urge you to read Biographies_of_living_persons if you have not already. "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid". The blog you linked to mentions an Enquirer article (dead link). That screams "tabloid" to me. I understand you want help with verification and research but this seems like "contentious material". Other editors may have a different view. 196.213.35.146 (talk) 13:27, 22 August 2016 (UTC)


 * His own website says "Judge DeWine and his wife Rhonda live in Cincinnati where they are the proud parents of five children. Michael (18), Matthew (17), Jacob (16), Grace (14) and Brian (13)." http://www.patdewine.com/about/ I don't think details of marriage and children is in any way contentious - it just isn't always easy to get right because some people in the public limelight prefer to keep some things quiet. Wymspen (talk) 14:00, 22 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Kudos. Did not even occur to me to look at the primary source. "Complicated issue". User a.k.a. 192.213.35.146 41.13.254.30 (talk) 17:29, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Is the title "First Lady" or "First Gentleman" used when the spouse is of the same sex as the leader?
Apokrif (talk) 18:52, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Are there any existing examples? Otherwise, like with "First Gentleman", it's likely they'll invent something if and when the need arises. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:17, 22 August 2016 (UTC)


 * It has never happened. It should be pointed out that first lady and the like are generally used only to refer to the spouse of the head of state, and not to the spouse of the head of government (in many nations these are not the same position). From a look at List of the first LGBT holders of political offices, there has never been an openly gay national head of state. A few countries have had openly gay heads of government, but as I said, that would not invoke the use of the term "first _____", and it happened in countries that never use those terms anyway. Someguy1221 (talk) 20:27, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily "openly" so, but see James Buchanan and William R. King. Also, during earlier centuries the term Favourite could be used euphemistically for the same-sex lover of a king or queen.  Sometimes the relationship wasn't sexual, and sometimes it was.  I.e. Anne de Joyeuse for Henry III of France, Piers Gaveston, 1st Earl of Cornwall for Edward II of England.  -- Jayron 32 01:34, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Antinous and Hadrian of Hadrian's Wall fame. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 07:06, 23 August 2016 (UTC)


 * In Buchanan's situation, his friend King died four years before Buchanan was elected president. In any event, same-sex marriage was not recognized by the law at that time. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:32, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * However at least in the US, the first lady doesn't have to be the married spouse (as List of First Ladies of the United States notes for examples) so nominally there's no reason why someone couldn't be a first lady or first gentleman despite not being married to the president. The social situation in the US at the time makes it unlikely it would have happened then. But there's a slight chance it may happen somewhere where there is some legal recognition short of marriage. (The big barrier would likely be for person in such a situation to be elected in the first place.) Nil Einne (talk) 04:54, 24 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Iceland's Jónína Leósdóttir has definitely been called "First Lady" by mainstream media:
 * Googling "Jörn Kubicki" (partner of a governor-mayor of Berlin) with "First Gentleman" finds a few hits, mostly in German. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:22, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * As a former president Bill Clinton retains the title for life. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 13:52, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Search "First Gentleman" (with quotes) in the Ref Desk Archives will bring up a number of discussions on that exact topic. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 13:11, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Or just read First Lady (to which First Gentleman redirects). Apokrif (talk) 17:27, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Surely in the case of a same-sex couple, use of the title 'first lady' or 'first gentleman' for the head of state's spouse would be wrong, because the head of state would 'outrank' their spouse for that gender.

For example, if hypothetical Senator Jane Doe became U.S. president, her spouse Janet Doe technically wouldn't be first lady because Jane Doe is already the seniormost female in the U.S. Then it becomes a question of terminology. 114.32.8.123 (talk) 12:48, 25 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Now that same - sex marriages are legal in some countries (but not here) what happens to the role of the bridesmaids and the best man? I don't think "First Gentleman" is likely to catch on - in local government the wife of the mayor is the Lady Mayoress but if the mayor is a lady her husband gets no title.   The British prime minister is First Lord of the Treasury and I don't think that's changed for Theresa.   The husband of a monarch is no higher than Prince Consort, and husbands of peeresses get no title at all.   The Queen does, however, give titles to the husbands of princesses. 213.107.114.104 (talk) 13:25, 25 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Wasn't Sarah Palin's husband called the "First Man" or "First Dude". They're probably more laid back in Alaska than in Washington, though. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:44, 25 August 2016 (UTC)


 * What's 'here'? Are referring to the situation in Northern Ireland? Because your IP looks up to the UK and your question seems to refer to the situation in the UK, but same sex marriage has been legal in most of the UK since 2014 Same-sex marriage in the United Kingdom. As for the question of terminology, it depends of course on the couple. See e.g.   . Also I don't get what you mean by "likely to catch on". AFAIK as per our article first gentleman is what's been used when it's arisen, in the US, Ireland and the Philippines. Nil Einne (talk) 17:51, 25 August 2016 (UTC)


 * We're well into how-many-pinheads-can-dance-on-an-angel territory here, but that's no more a problem than the fact that the "First Officer" is second in command, and (usually) the second-highest ranking. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:02, 25 August 2016 (UTC)