Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2016 January 3

= January 3 =

Is there a reliable source that has religious demographics on US municipalities?
Is there a reliable source that has religious demographics on US municipalities? Apparently the U.S. Census no longer does that. Thank you. ɱ (talk · vbm  · coi) 12:58, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Nobody tried to look? All I could find were ones for major cities and counties. Might have to use county data, that's unfortunate. ɱ  (talk · vbm  · coi) 22:42, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

User:Roland Boucher asking about Ancient Mesopotamian units of measurement
there is a problem which i discussed at length Friday on the help line Yesterday I ordered the reference by Powell in a $750 book. I bought it used for $93 this may help

in any case this is the problem

1 the length table the cubit is(was) clearly marked with a value of 497 mm. This value can be verified by using the weight of a double mina weighing 978.3 grams  in the British museum ( Berriman 1955) Obtaining the volume of the Sila used to define it with water at 25 dec C yielding a Sila of 978.3 ml. The sila is the cube of 1/10 a seed cubit (or 1/5 cubit) yielding a seed cubit of  993.7 mm.

This value is almost exactly the Pendulum meter proposed by Borda and Cassini in 1792. This has led me on a four year search to discover a number of ancient measures which fit pendulums derived from either the gesh of 1/360 solar day or a similar period of time generated by the stars or by the planet Venus.

2 under the distance table you state Distance units were geodetic as distinguished from non-geodetic basic length units. Sumerian geodesy divided latitude into seven zones between equator and pole.

You provide no explanation as to how these measures were arrived at. It is easy to see how a 994 mm meter could be used to measure the circumference of the earth then stretched to fit the earth. However the results were not close to the division of the earth into 360 degrees then into the logical further division by 60 (a geodetic arc minute or nautical mile ) or by 360 (a geodetic cable) or by 3600 ( a geodetic arc second) Having two similar measures so close together would have been very confusing. Changing the foot would have been safer.

the Sumerians could have measured the earth's circumference with an accuracy of 1 percent or better ( the egyptians achieved an accuracy of abour 0.2 percent) a logical division for the sumerians would have been 1/360 circumference = 1 degree, 1/360 degree = 1 cable, 1/360 cable = 1 double cubit this would have resulted in a double cubit of about 85 cm.

the foot based on (1/1080) cable would be about 283 mm but based on 1/1000 cable would be about 306 mm

This is close to other ancient feet Egypt 299-300mm - Minoan ft 303.6 m  -  Pyramid foot 307 mm -  Parthenon foot 308.6 mm  - Japanese foot 303 mm

From the length of these other ancient feet you can see why this question may be important.

1 Arthur Bronwell. Advanced Mathematics in Physics and Engineering, (New York: McGraw-Hill. 1953), p.137-139

2 Margenau, Watson and Montgomery, Physics Principles and Applications, (New York: McGraw-Hill. 1949), p.178-180

3 E. Janhke, and F. Emde, 1945. Table of Functions, (New York: Dover Publications Fourth Edition 1945), Table V. Complete elliptical integrals p.85

4 WGS 84a 1984 Gravity of Earth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_of_Earth

5 Robson, “Mathematics” Table A.3, p.294

6 A.E.Berriman, A new approach to the study of Ancient Metrology Revue d’assyriologie et d’archeologie orientale, 49e Volume no 4 91955) p193-201 Presses Universitaires de France

8 WGS 84b 1984 Earth according to WGS84. http://home.online.no/~sigurdhu/Grid_1deg.htm

9 Victor J. Katz, (editor),  Imhausen, Annette et al. The Mathematics of Egypt, Mesopotamia,  China, India, and Islam: A Sourcebook, (Princeton: Princeton University Press 2007).

10 WGS 84b 1984 “every degree”

11 Berriman, “Historical”, p. 17.

12 Sir W.M.F Petrie, Inductive Metrology, (London: H. Saunders, 1877). section 21-39

13 James W. Graham. The Palaces of Crete, (Princeton: Princeton Univ. Press. 1962), p. 224

14 Arthur J. Evans, Minoan weights and mediums of currency from crete,mycenae, and cyprus Corolla Numisimatica,Numismatic Essays in Honor of Barclay V. Head p 342

16 Christopher Knight and Alan Butler, Civilization One, ( London:Watkins Publishing 2004), P. 18,30

16 Ronald E. Zupko, British Weights and Measures (Madison:The University of Wisconsin        Press), P. 17,18  a 1215 King John signs the Magna Carta which includes section 35 on measures 17 Roland A. Boucher 2013 The pendulum and the Foot in Ancient Metrology http://rolandfly.wordpress.com/ article “A Pint a Pound the World around?

18 Berriman, “Historical” p 29,116,119]

19 “Ibid.”, p.116

20 Professor John Clark in email correspondence with the author reported that the mound builders in southern USA may have used used a standard of two megalith yards and that the Olmec and Maya may have used a standard or five attic feet. This length, 1.54 meters, is 1/20th the width of the Parthenon in Greece.


 * This would probably be better at Talk:Ancient Mesopotamian units of measurement. The reference desk is for asking specific questions, not for advancing one's own theories.  See also WP:OR. Tevildo (talk) 17:09, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Cemaat
The Turkish-based Gülen movement is also known as "Cemaat", and most pages with links to cemaat (a redirect to Jamia, which has several hatnotes for alternate meanings) are talking about this movement, so just now I went around retargeting those links. I was left with two articles that I couldn't fix, Süleymancılar and Hüseyin Hilmi Işık, because I wasn't sure what the best target was: Thanks! Nyttend (talk) 15:57, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Süleymancılar — it's in the text (Jamia-e Sūlaymānīyyā / Süleyman Efendi Cemaati); what's the meaning of Cemaat here? The link to Jamia makes me guess that "Cemaati" is not talking about the primary meaning of the Jamia article, because why would you link it twice in a five-word phrase?
 * Hüseyin Hilmi Işık — it's in the text "A cemaat named "Işıkçılar Cemaati" in Turkey has been established by his followers." Do I understand rightly that this is merely using it as a synonym for Jamia, i.e. no fix is needed?
 * Yes, both words are Arabic and can be used almost interchangeably as 'society,' 'community,' 'association,' 'group,' 'fellowship,' 'league,' and so on. Omidinist (talk) 19:36, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
 * What meaning of "cemaat" is intended for the first article? Nyttend (talk) 04:47, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Society as a social movement or as a group of people with common goals. Omidinist (talk) 07:20, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Y Gododdin question
A reader contacted Wikimedia regarding a passage in Y Gododdin

"...however Williams explained that "mead" here stood for everything the warriors received from their lord. In return, they were expected to "pay their mead" by being loyal to their lord unto death. A similar concept is found in Anglo-Saxon poetry.[14] ..." The original question asked for more information about the source, which I was able to confirm as coming from:


 * Williams, Ifor. 1938. "Canu Aneirin: gyda rhagymadrodd a nodiadau." Aberystwyth: Gwasg Prifysgol Cymru.

Unfortunately, that is in Welsh, and the editor who added it left Wikipedia in 2007.

I suggested that the editor ask for more information at the Reference desk, but they were unable to. I see that this page is semiprotected, so I am posting here.

Is there anyone that can provide more information about the passage?-- S Philbrick (Talk)  16:20, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
 * We have an article on Ifor Williams, and his book is available on Amazon. The original questioner should be able to post an edit request to WT:RD if they want to clarify their question. Tevildo (talk) 17:25, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Girl offerings to Bel
According to Galerie Vincent Lecuyer, which previously exhibited The Fiancee of Belus, there was a Babylonian custom of offering a virgin to Bel (Belus) who sat on the statue's lap and then was replaced by another every night. The offered girl was reportedly the winner of beauty contests held among Babylonian girls every day. However, I can't find such a custom in other sources. Are there any other references on this? Brandmeistertalk  20:44, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
 * You may want to check the Catalog of the Salon des Artistes Français, Paris, 1885 (Henry Paul Motte's painting is number 1818) here or here and see if the Galerie Vincent Lecuyer are not simply transcribing literally something they found there. In any case I wouldn't necessarily take them as an authority on Assyriology. I would also look for 19th century literary works this story may have come from. If you read 19th century literary works like say Flaubert's Salammbô you'll see that the 19th century's ideas about ancient civilizations do not necessarily fit with present day scolarship. Contact Basemetal   here  21:06, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
 * In this interview they say that the story depicted in that painting has no historical basis. Contact Basemetal   here  21:10, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Just to expand a bit, 19th century scholarship in the humanities was... uneven, at best. To be sure, there were plenty of well-considered works done, but this was a prime time where enthusiasts would wax philosophic about the "savages" and other "primitive people", based on the flimsiest bits of hearsay, spinning the wildest sorts of craziness. Where they did venture out into the world beyond their studies, their work was often amateurish and/or destructive (see Heinrich_Schliemann's leveling of Troy for an example). To be fair, there are certainly still terrible frauds out there making the rounds today, but back then there was much less structure in place to correct it - or at least critique it. Our article at pseudoarchaeology provides more context. In those days, as in ours, salacious details about young girls being deflowered by the stone idols of pagan deities would get the 19th century equivalent of click-throughs. Matt Deres (talk) 19:41, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Is polygamy permitted to Muslims in Israel?
Are Muslims in Israel allowed polygamous marriages? I'd always thought they weren't, but I've just read here about a taxi driver who was recently murdered in TA and who seems (although it doesn't say so explicitly) to have been a Muslim. The article states: שעאבן הותיר אחריו 11 ילדים ו-3 נשים which I understand as meaning "Shaban [the victim's name] left behind eleven children and three wives". It could be three successive wives, but if that were case I have the feeling they wouldn't have said it this way. In English you don't "leave behind" ex-wives. But maybe you do in Hebrew. Contact Basemetal   here  22:01, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Israel banned polygyny by 1978. See Polygyny in Islam.--Shantavira|feed me 09:50, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Our article doesn't say, but I presume existing marriages were "grandfathered" in. But the taxi driver was 42 years old so couldn't have married before 1978. (That source also says he was Muslim.) And I don't believe it's likely a Palestinian could be a taxi driver in Tel Aviv. (Some sources also say he was from Lod which also suggests he must have been Israeli.) The most likely explanation is probably that the he wasn't in a marriage legally recognised by Israel to all 3 women. This source makes me thing that such arrangements may generally be ignored provided it appears all parties are consenting, and in fact at least in 2010 may not have been illegal. Definitely it isn't unheard of in English to refer to someone as someone's husband or wife, even if the relationship isn't legally recognised as such, particularly if the reason is due to some legal barrier but the relationship is otherwise akin to a legally recognised marriage (as much as may be possible given the circumstances). Nil Einne (talk) 11:19, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Presently serving Israeli parliament member Taleb Abu Arar, a Bedouin Arab, has two wives, the latter evidently (per press citations on his Hebrew Wikipedia page) having formal status as his common-law wife. When four Arab political parties united to form the Joint List for the March 2015 elections, this was a point of consternation for JL members from the egalitarian Hadash party that supports women's rights. -- Deborahjay (talk) 11:40, 5 January 2016 (UTC)