Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2016 July 21

= July 21 =

Country in Europe with highest rape rate
Which country has the highest rate of rape in Europe? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.87.100.5 (talk) 00:15, 21 July 2016 (UTC)


 * First take a giant boulder of salt: Apparently Sweden. However, rape is believed to be severely under reported in every country, and data gathering methods and even the definition of rape vary from country to country. Sweden has the most rapes reported to the police of any European country, but there is no reason to suspect this statistic correlates to actually having the most rapes. The article I linked goes into the details for each country that make it hard to compare the national statistics. Most countries have also had scientific surveys conducted in an attempt to estimate the true rate of rape, but comparing these from country to country puts you up against methodological differences and once again, culturally distinct definitions of rape. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:51, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
 * "Sweden has the most rapes reported to the police of any European country" - probably true but I'm not sure if we have actual evidence it's true. The article you linked to discusses Sweden having the highest reported statistics to UNODC worldwide but this is a somewhat distinct point. Far as I can tell (and supported by our article), there's nothing stopping countries reporting whatever statistics they want to the UNODC other than pressure from their populance and others. Even if a country has published statistics of police reports, they could report something completely different to the UNODC, I'm not seeing anything in the article suggesting anyone has actually looked in to this possibility. More importantly would be those who collate but don't publish police reports statistics, and report something else to the UNODC. Then there will be those who don't collate police reports, but somehow come up with figures to send to the UNODC. And in either case, a country could also publicise the UNODC figures as police report figures even though they aren't. In the absence of a whistle-blower or public admission, we'll have no way of even knowing for sure about these. And I'm not even sure the UNODC figures are supposed to be police reports, or whether convictions etc would be something a country could resonable feel is what they should report.
 * Perhaps not so relevant here but a country could just not report to the UNODC. Various pressures means European countries are more likely to report. In fact the only ones who aren't on the 2013 UNODC list seem to be Kosovo and Vatican City who I presume probably can't report as they aren't members of the UN, San Marino who maybe don't bother given their tiny size, but most interesting of all Italy. Italy do report sexual violence and sexual offences against children, but aren't in the rape section. Since the sexual violence figures are supposed to include rape and they are lower than the Sweden rape figures, this means Italy can't be higher. (Strangely our article includes the sexual violence figures for Italy for the first few years.) A few also didn't report in 2013 or a few years before, although their previous figures were significantly lower than Sweden. Still the point is even if we were to take the 2013 UNODC report as a completely accurate tally of police reports, we couldn't actually say Sweden is higher than Malaysia or Cambodia from the report since neither are included.
 * Nil Einne (talk) 18:28, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Could the reported rape rate in Sweden be partly attributed to an increase in immigration from Muslim countries?206.87.96.174 (talk) 02:04, 22 July 2016 (UTC)


 * The answer is no you racist troll. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 02:33, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

I am going to close all such provocative trolling, "left" or "right" μηδείς (talk) 03:30, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

This is a simple question that you'd think would have a simple answer, but it's not so easy because rape is often not reported - sometimes wisely. Our article cites a UN document that does in fact show Sweden with the highest rate, 53.2 per 100,000 in 2008, up from 24.9 in 2003 in a steady rise over those years. The only higher rate is Lesotho with 91.6 per 100,000. The catch is that Egypt, for example, has a statistic of just 0.1 per 100,000 - literally 1 in 1 million. So we have rape statistics but they are not real. Wnt (talk) 18:11, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

the Bomb
I wonder which event "the Bomb" in the following sentence refers to. "After Pearl Harbor and before D-day and the Bomb, there was the Doolittle raid on Tokyo." ( "'Target Tokyo' brings a well-known WWII story back to life" by Tony Perry) Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.234.99 (talk) 00:20, 21 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Dropping the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Tgeorgescu (talk) 00:38, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.20.193.222 (talk) 01:47, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Was there an underground railroad to Mexico for escaped slaves?
I know there was the Underground Railroad to Canada for American black slaves. Mexico abolished slavery in 1829. Right? Was there a similar underground railroad to Mexico for escaped African-American slaves? Did more slaves go to Canada or go to Mexico? 2607:FEA8:A760:35C:ADB0:8DB4:AE65:6453 (talk) 02:39, 21 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Underground Railroad states in the first paragraph "Various other routes led to Mexico or overseas." The article "South to Freedom" agrees. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:58, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Non-Nazi swastika
Besides the example surrounding the controversy over a Pokemon trading card are there any other similar cases of Westerners being offended or trying to ban the use of non-Nazi swastika especially in Asia.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 02:46, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
 * See the "Efforts to remove historical swastikas" section of Western use of the swastika in the early 20th century. Apparently one idiot wrote in my campus paper, when I was still working on campus, in an attempt to get the swastika tiles removed from the Men's Gymnasium (Indiana University).  Nyttend (talk) 03:34, 21 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Prior to the rise of Nazism and its adoption of the swastika, some editions of Rudyard Kipling's books were bound in covers decorated with the Indian symbol. He ordered the discontinuation of this when the Nazis rose to prominence [which I now see is mentioned in Nyttend's first linked article], and while offhand I'm not aware of any instances of offense taken and complaints, investigation might reveal some.
 * Incidentally, as well as being asian, the swastika (which has various other names), often considered as a "sun-wheel" symbol, appears in the very ancient European Vinča script – which may or may not have been a form of writing – as illustrated in the second external link of that article. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230,195) 2.123.26.60 (talk) 03:45, 21 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Not mentioned in the article is the Navajo/Hopi (Anasazi) use of the symbol. (Do your own search; I'm too tired right now --g'nite) 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:79CC:9632:9DD5:631F (talk) 05:49, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
 * The Customs House in Sydney uses swastika ("fylfot") tiling, and the approach of the building's management has been to erect an explanatory sign. This article also talks about other approaches to dealing with pre-Nazi swastikas in the West.
 * In East Asia, swastikas are traditionally used as a shorthand symbol for Buddhist temples or Buddhism, but Japan recently bowed to international confusion and stopped using it to indicate temples in tourist maps. But it's still commonly seen in Buddhist iconography even today, as far as I can tell without any local controversy.
 * The charitable Red Swastika Society, though not as influential as it was before World War II, is apparently still alive and well. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:21, 21 July 2016 (UTC)


 * On the flip side, see Swastika Laundry, an Irish laundering service that not only used the swastika as its logo, but painted it in black on a white field with a red background, yet somehow managed to keep its design until the 1980s. Smurrayinchester 12:31, 21 July 2016 (UTC)


 * In Carl Sagan's book Comet, meant to coincide with the last return of Halley's Comet, he speculated that the worldwide prevalence of the Swastika might have to do with the appearance of a four-tailed rotating comet. Such multi-tailed rotating comets have been historically attested. μηδείς (talk) 18:36, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

1848-1849 in Europe - Government system changes?
Hello, as i'm new to this subject, i would like to know, if there were any government system changes in European countries in the time from 1848 to 1849 besides France. For example from absolute monarchy to constitutional monarchy, parliamentary monarchy or republic. --KaterBegemot (talk) 10:02, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Revolutions of 1848 is an overview article with links to articles on events in individual countries. --Wrongfilter (talk) 10:30, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
 * As noted in the article, there are two persepctives on the question. 1) Did the revolutions of 1848 cause any immediate and direct changes of political systems and 2) Did the revolutions of 1848 cause any lasting and long term shifts in the politics of Europe.  The general historical consensus on 1) is no; because in almost every case, the actual revolutions themselves were shut down and the old order re-established in the immediate aftermath.  The consensus on 2) is absolutely yes, as 1848 is the year where the tide change occurred; the events of that year is what laid the groundwork (over more than a century and a half of frequently violent upheaval) of the democratization of Europe.  There are, of course, a few exceptions: Denmark is one noted in that article, as it's liberalized constitutional monarchy established in 1848 was not overthrown.  -- Jayron 32 14:48, 21 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Yeah, cause nothing says "national liberation" like being pushed around by Germany and Brussels and having no control over your borders. Asmrulz (talk) 17:31, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
 * If the politicians in 1989 invoked 1848, so what. Obama and Michele Bachmann alike can both invoke the Constitution to rationalize their agendas (CultMarx and Calvinism, respectively), Stalin invoked Alexander Nevsky, and Russia thinks she's the successor state to Eastern Rome. It's called politics. Asmrulz (talk) 17:31, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
 * The whole agenda of 1848 would be considered far right-wing today. They wanted ethnostates and stuff. East Europe democratized alright, too bad the definition of democracy changed. Asmrulz (talk) 17:38, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Not so the Chartist movement in the UK, whose ultimate and largest petition was presented in 1848, calling for universal male suffrage (only property owners could vote at that time), secret ballots, equal electoral districts and payment of Members of Parliament (who were then expected to be financially self-supporting). Only their demand for annual general elections has fallen by the wayside. Alansplodge (talk) 19:51, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you Wrongfilter for the link and Jayron32 for your summary. However i don't understand, why you say that the 1848 revolutions didn't change any political system in Europe. In France the revolution ended the constitutional monarchy and established the (Second) Republic, in the Kingdom of Prussia the 1848 events caused the change from an absolute monarchy to a constutional one. I know, the Second Republic lasted only some years (although the government system in Prussia existed until 1918), but i was more interested in the short period from 1848 to 1849 and less in the long-term aftermath. Again, i'm new to this subject, so maybe i'm wrong in some points. @Asmurlz I don't know, what this anti-EU polemic and Obama bashing has to do with a question about the 1848 revolutions. The fact that the 1848 movements had nationalist elements back then, doesn't bless the silly right-wing nationalist movements in Europe nowadays. I personally really doubt that nationalism is more than a really irrational, xenophobic and anti-progressive ideology. It really belongs more in the 19th century than in the 21st. "Pushed around by Germany and Brussels" is a really naive nationalist statement, that reveals the fact, that you don't really know, how the EU parliament works. You know, that every country participates in the decision making with parliamentarians form the own country and together in big European parties, that pursue the same goals as them? However i'm not really interested in discussing this. Real comments to this 1848 questions are still very welcome. --KaterBegemot (talk) 21:09, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
 * TRIGGERED! Yeah, "irrational", "xenophobic", "it's the %current year%" - you're a walking CultMarx Leftist stereotype. And how do you know I was bashing Obama? "Nationalist elements" is funny. Nationalism was their whole raison d'etre! I'm shutting up, not because you're "not interested" (we do not own our threads here, KaterBegmeot, and besides, I wasn't commenting on your stuff), but because WP:NOTFORUM. Asmrulz (talk) 21:56, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Funny, you sound like a Gamergate kiddy who worships Milo Yiannopoulos and Mencius Moldbug. How old are you? Many 13-year-old boys are more mature than that. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:58, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
 * That stuff didn't deserve an honest answer. Yours neither. Lay off that CultMarx "if you don't agree with my radical bs, you're a kid/xenophobe/homophobe/beta male who's afraid of women" shtick. Moldbug has got a point, but I'm not into hereditary rule/corporate technocracy/whatever it is he advocates, nor ready to scrap Enlightenment just yet. Asmrulz (talk) 00:36, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Please stick to requests for references, rather than expressions of your own political opinions μηδείς (talk) 04:16, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Full title of Dalí's 1950 painting "Myself at the age of six"
What is the correct full title of Salvador Dalí's painting "Myself at the age of six" (1950)? I have found several variations, but the following seems to be correct: "Moi-même à l'âge de six ans, quand je croyais être petite fille, en train de soulever avec une extrême précaution la peau de la mer pour observer un chien dormant à l'ombre de l'eau". Curiously, the part "quand je croyais être petite fille" is often dropped, although I personally find it to be the most remarkable part of the title. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 20:55, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Oddly, the Dali Foundation's catalogue raisonné uses the third person ("Dalí at the Age of Six, When He Thought He Was a Girl, Lifting the Skin of the Water to See a Dog Sleeping in the Shade of the Sea"), but leaves out the thinking-he-was-a-girl part in French, while giving it in English, Catalan, and Castilian Spanish. ---Sluzzelin talk  21:10, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
 * René Passeron in his Encyclopédie du surréalisme (1975), Paris: Éditions Somogy, appears to give the following title: "Dali à l'âge de six ans quand il croyait être une jeune fille, en train de soulever la peau de l'eau, pour voir un chien dormir à l'ombre de la mer", compare here. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:10, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
 * However, this mysteriously omits "avec une extrême précaution". It's really frustrating. Every source, even among the reliable-appearing ones, appears to give a different variant of the title. Compare this source, which again has the first person: "Moi-même à l'âge de six ans quand je croyais être petite fille, en train de soulever avec une extrême précaution la peau de la mer, pour observer un chien dormant à son ombre". It's maddening. Why do people find it so difficult to get the freaking title right? --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:28, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
 * And just to add to the confusion, I also found Yo, a la edad angélica, levantando con precaución la piel del agua para observar un perro dormido a la sombra del mar (my emphasis) in "París, Nueva York, Madrid: Picasso y Dalí ante las grandes exposiciones internacionales" by Miguel Cabañas Bravo and Idoia Murga Castro. ---Sluzzelin  talk  07:22, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
 * http://thedali.org/contact may be the best place to go, the Salvador Dalí Museum. Alternately, you could email, which appears to be the main email address for the Dalí Theatre and Museum at Figueres, his home town in Spain.  Nyttend (talk) 12:15, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I have tried both. Let's see. I was under the impression that Dalí usually gave titles in French to his paintings, but this assumption of mine might be mistaken. I suspect there may not be an authentic title, as this painting (like apparently many paintings in general, not just Dalí's) does not bear an inscribed title, but there should at least be a canonical or "official" title. I don't know if this is something specific to this painting, or to Dalí or to long titles, but it strikes me as odd that all these numerous sources would disagree and give so many variants, and that there should not be one conventional, agreed-on title, perhaps found in some "official" index or catalogue, approved and used by academic experts. I must admit ignorance about art history, but I thought in musicology, an analogous function is fulfilled by registers such as catalogues of classical compositions. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 21:41, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

A definitive English title for the painting may be that given in the 2-volume Surrealism edited by Daniel Filipacchi (1970 Heron Books, ISBN: 0810969211): "Myself at the Age of Six When I Thought I Was a Girl Lifting with Extreme Precaution the Skin of the Sea to Observe a Dog Sleeping in the Shade of the Water"

www.wikiart.org names the painting in the 3rd person: "Dali at the Age of Six When He Thought He Was a Girl Lifting the Skin of the Water to See the Dog Sleeping in the Shade of the Sea". Another version reads: "Dali, at the age of six, when he thought he was a girl, lifting the skin of the sea to watch the dog sleeping in its shadow."

An etching signed by Dali was also sold with title "Myself at the Age of Six...". It differs slightly from the painting in that the girl child is bent forward and there is a chapel building behind her.

Incidentally, the dog in the painting looks borrowed from Ayne Bru's 16th century painting The Martyrdom of Saint Cucuphas.

Other age-related declarations by Salvador Dali include: "At the age of six I wanted to be a cook. At seven I wanted to be Napoleon. And my ambition has been growing steadily ever since."

"Infraterrestrials Adored by Dali at the Age of Six when he Thought Himself an Insect" (Engraving 1974 )

"Myself at The Age of Ten When I Was The Grasshopper Child" (1933 painting ) AllBestFaith (talk) 22:44, 22 July 2016 (UTC)


 * For all those who get bored at trying to understand Salvador Dali's ambiguous lists of lines there is the other (number one) surrealist painter René Magritte. His own lines all make immediate sense (although who can ascertain they are sincere ?) .--Askedonty (talk) 20:31, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Two questions about mass shootings in the United States
1. Most, if not almost all mass shootings in the United States end with the death of the perpetrator (usually by suicide, although occassionally by being shot to death by police or other armed individuals). In cases where the shooting ended with the death of the perpetrator, were there any efforts to save the life of the perpetrator (i.e. to try and treat his wounds, or to revive him after he shoots himself/has been shot)? Also, in cases which end in the perpetrator's suicide, did police and other officials make any effort to at least attempt to arrest the perpetrator before he could commit suicide? 2. How come in the cases I'm aware of, there is no media coverage about the fate of the perpetrator after death (i.e. funeral details, etc.), and at least in the media, the perpetrator's name is usually not listed in the list of names of fatalities? This refers not just to mass shootings but to murder cases in the United States in general. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 22:52, 21 July 2016 (UTC)


 * 2) Many such mass shootings seem to be designed to get media coverage, and not listing their name is supposed to reduce copy-cat attacks. StuRat (talk) 22:52, 21 July 2016 (UTC)


 * You have not provided any evidence for your first claim. The second claim involves pressworthiness *"Who cares?") and I hope, as CSD has said, damnatio memoriae which is every so often called for in the press, and which I try to abide by myself. μηδείς (talk) 23:53, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
 * For my first question, my source would be List of spree killers by number of victims, the section on North America suggests that most end in the death of the perpetrator. Also, I've asked similar questions about spree killings here on the Reference desk before. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:58, 21 July 2016 (UTC)


 * You should be aware, then, that (1) wikipedia is not a RS, and (2), that most multiple shootings are domestic violence, not spree shootings. Perhaps you can reword your question as a well-defined request for references?  And why exactly is the US named?  As far as I am aware, Anders Breivik is the worst known spree killer in history.  A definition of spree killer in respect to references, regardless of country might help.  Otherwise it looks like you wnt to make a point or start a debate, neither of which is appropriate here. μηδείς (talk) 04:08, 22 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Mohamed Lahouaiej-Bouhlel killed more than Brevik, and is also not American. -- Jayron 32 11:23, 22 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Burial places would be a matter of public record, but that doesn't mean the papers want to make a thing out of it. Such info could lead to vandalism and/or memorials to the perp. The average cemetery wouldn't want that. As for Anders Breivik, it's most unfortunate that he doesn't yet have a burial place to visit. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:12, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Bad planning on his part? —Tamfang (talk) 08:07, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I just came across the phrase "spree killer".  Who invented it? 194.66.226.95 (talk) 11:56, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Looking at Newspapers.com (a pay site), I'm seeing the expression used as far back as the early 1900s. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:37, 22 July 2016 (UTC)


 * There are news reports about the burial - generally speaking though, it's hard because the more careful cemeteries want nothing to do with it; the corpse tends to roam around like a garbage barge looking for a place to drop out of sight.  So it's low profile and well after the initial wave of news reports by the time the deed is done, and generally with a deliberate effort by all involved to avoid any publicity arising from the act whatsoever. (in the case I cited above, it was public officials who tipped the story with a death certificate; otherwise the family and cemetery would have kept it under wraps) Wnt (talk) 15:01, 22 July 2016 (UTC)