Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2016 May 22

= May 22 =

circumvent the Jones Act by Hawaii/Alaska-Vancouver-Seattle
Merchant_Marine_Act_of_1920 says: "There are, of course, ways to circumvent the Jones Act by making a stop in a foreign country between two US ports, i.e. Hawaii/Alaska-Vancouver-Seattle." Is this actually true? Kinda hard to believe that such an obvious loophole would be still valid after all these years. Johnson&#38;Johnson&#38;Son (talk) 02:55, 22 May 2016 (UTC)
 * This article discusses the loophole in the context of major cruise ships. A cruise ship serving only US ports must fly the US flag. There is only one such ship, the Pride of America, which operates in Hawaii, a very long distance from any foreign port. I spent a week on that ship three years ago. All the other cruise ships that call at US ports also call at ports in Canada, Mexico or non-US Carribean ports, and fly flags of other nations. So, what you describe is standard operating procedure. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  05:08, 22 May 2016 (UTC)


 * How would you amend it? —Tamfang (talk) 06:11, 22 May 2016 (UTC)


 * The article makes it clear that there is non-negligible support for repealing the Act entirely, so it's not surprising the "loophole" is still there. Opponents of the Act would likely oppose efforts to close it. Also, taking advantage of the "loophole" isn't free. It's not like, say, a tax loophole, which often can be taken advantage of with nothing more than a little accounting or legal deftness. Adjusting a freighter's scheduled route certainly has costs; the carrier will only do so if there's a net benefit. --71.110.8.102 (talk) 06:30, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

What happened to the nightclub(s) in Russia where naked men swim in fish tanks?
Were they closed by Putin's anti-gay laws? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:53, 22 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Surely not if the fish are all female. Someone must check on that... Wnt (talk) 14:51, 22 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Here's a source about naked women swimming in casino fish tanks at some point with Putin in office.  Sorry, it's not really close enough...  Ah, but here's one about naked men and it specifies a club Chance in Moscow.   Not sure when that's set...  here's a confirmation, for 1997, when OMON was already being a problem but not a fatal one.   Hmmm, from this it sounds like it was more damaging than that.  I'm not sure from that description whether it passed 2001 or not.  This 2013 source  seems to suggest that they are not a factor - it says the only remnant of that "era" is a weekly event at a club called Propaganda, anyway.  Wnt (talk) 14:54, 22 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The Russain experiment in question came to a tragic end when someone introduced snapping turtles into the tank. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:12, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Has there ever been an external tariff?
With protectionism back in the news in regard to alleged dumping (pricing policy) of steel by China, I find myself wondering once again -- has a country ever attempted a protectionist policy where the tariff is not collected as revenue inside the country, but is required to be collected by the exporter to be spent or returned to vulnerable groups?

For example, instead of putting an import tariff on US steel, the US might require that China collect a tax on exported steel, and earmark the money it generates to fund pollution control measures on coal power plants. Or the Ivory Coast might be required to tax chocolate exports and contribute the money to an international nonprofit that gives money to slave or exploited labor. (The US could collect and disburse the tax; having the exporter do it would simply be a way to illustrate that the US has no interest in touching the money, only in seeing fair circumstances) I'm thinking such taxes might be explained in terms of uncompensated externalities in the exporting country due to policy differences, and forcing that country to collect and dispense the tax would be seen as forcing a level playing field by pricing in equivalent spending on safety and fairness.

But have they ever been enacted anywhere? Does the idea even exist? Wnt (talk) 14:50, 22 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I doubt it... It would be unenforceable. Blueboar (talk) 15:34, 22 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Why do you say that? I'd think it would be easier to enforce that the incoming product has paid a tariff than that it didn't really come from Iran, for example. Wnt (talk) 19:59, 22 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Anything is enforceable when you develop a treaty with an enforcement mechanism. Anyway, I want to say the Kyoto Protocol's emissions trading system is roughly equivalent to this. —/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 20:04, 22 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Since the US Constitution forbids taxes on exports, it would be rather hypocritical of us to expect some other country to do so. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:51, 22 May 2016 (UTC)


 * That doesn't seem practical, to me, as the other nation might well be a kleptocracy, in which case they will presumably just steal the money collected and not spend it on their people. We've had this problem with foreign aid, which is supposed to be used to improve conditions for poor people in a nation, but instead just buys the despot some more solid gold toilets.  Better for us to collect the tax and spend it directly on the thing we want to accomplish in that nation, being careful not to give the poor people there something that can be easily stolen by their leaders and sold. StuRat (talk) 04:12, 23 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Well, then the other country can accuse you of being the kleptocracy, often with considerable merit. (Famously, look at how the U.S. runs "child support" against its own citizens)  I was thinking the protectionist aspect of the tax wouldn't depend on whether it was properly spent, and the governments of such countries are only going to rob the people one way or another so it doesn't actually matter much if it's from that money.  I was even thinking that, politically, the kleptocrat aspect might serve as a sweetener to get the exporter's government to acquiesce to a protectionist tariff that otherwise one would expect them to fight tooth and nail. Wnt (talk) 13:55, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

As illustrated by steel, chocolate, etc, countries generally import more different things than they import. Sell cotton, buy both steel and chocolate. So, an export tax would be simpler. However, balance of trade considerations usually override all other aims of tariff policy. Jim.henderson (talk) 01:54, 24 May 2016 (UTC)


 * It's not exactly the same thing the OP is asking for, but Mercantilism was an economic theory which was heavily based on preventing export of key goods in a supply chain. You protected native industries by preventing the export of raw goods to foreign nations.  So, while you cannot force another sovereign nation to control their exports to you via such tarriffs, countries have in the past prevented their own goods from leaving.  The Navigation Acts famously restricted trade of anything except finished goods outside of the British Empire, keeping the costs of supply chains low and improving profit for the Empire.  -- Jayron 32 02:02, 24 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Historically, taxes on exports are not unknown. In 1592, the construction of Drake's Fort on Plymouth Hoe was funded by a tax on every hogshead of pilchards which was exported from the town (foreign merchants had to pay more than English ones).  Alansplodge (talk) 13:01, 24 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Export taxes imposed by the government of export are not unknown. Export taxes impose by the country importing are AFAIK very rare. Nil Einne (talk) 04:01, 26 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Note that Côte d'Ivoire exports very little chocolate. Their first significant chocolate factory only opened last year and it appears to be targetting the local market. In fact a majority of their exports are still unprocessed cocoa beans by foreign companies although there has been moves to more local processing and exports   Cocoa production in Ivory Coast (and also earlier ref). So it's not really clear what you're going to achieve by a tax on chocolate exports from Côte d'Ivoire. It seems likely you'll make things worse since you'll be putting a barrier on the growth of more local processing which for all the possible problems (some of them highlighted in a few of the earlier sources), it's generally accepted that more local processing which means more money stays in the country of export generally improves things generally. (Which isn't to say it's the only way.) If you mean a tax on cocoa beans, that's a different story. However the difficulties of imposing and successfully running such a scheme have to be compared against other alternatives (bearing in mind the earlier points about processing and in particular that regardless of the problems with cocoa production in Côte d'Ivoire and the unfairness of the system there, most of the money from chocolate is being made by people from outside the Côte d'Ivoire). Nil Einne (talk) 04:01, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Sorry - I was thinking of cocoa beans that I remembered reading allegations about, not finished chocolate. Wnt (talk) 13:51, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Can someone tell me why social people don't want to dance before midnight?
One of Wnt's references to my question mentioned a cover charge for arriving after 11 which made me remember that this is a thing. (usually 11 or midnight according to cover charge) Why wouldn't everyone just come before midnight? Why is it "unhip" to dance from 11:59 to 4 am? That's not that early, it's halfway through the night. And in many places bars don't even close at 4 they must close at 2 and clubs probably have to too so people would pay money to get kicked out in 2-3 hours max. Is there a rush at 11:45? What the hell do extroverts do before midnight on a weekend? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:00, 22 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I've wondered the same thing too. I was once at a nightclub in Helsinki, Finland. I arrived as soon as the nightclub opened, at about 10 PM. After an hour and a half of being the only customer, I felt bored and left. Upon leaving, I asked the doorman when people generally arrive at the club. He answered "Usually at 2 AM at the earliest." When do these people sleep? J I P  &#124; Talk 20:39, 22 May 2016 (UTC)


 * It started out being hip to be late, as if "I'm the life of the party, so nothing will happen without me anyway". Initially they were just a little bit late, but then everyone tried to outdo everyone else, and this pushed the starting time back further and further.  It's a bit how everyone feels the need to prove that they are a nonconformist by wearing the exact same clothes.  Personally, I'd ignore all that foolishness, wear what I want, take my date when we damn well feel like dancing, and have some room on the dance floor for once. StuRat (talk) 23:15, 22 May 2016 (UTC)


 * At least in the UK, this has very practical reasons; alcohol can be pretty extortionately priced in clubs, therefore people pre-drink at home or maybe in a pub before going out. Fgf10 (talk) 06:48, 23 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Doesn't seem like that would push the starting time back that much. How long does it take to get buzzed ?  Maybe an hour ?  When could they start ?  Right after work or school ?  So they could still start dancing by 8 PM, by my calcs. StuRat (talk) 01:15, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
 * No, it takes time to have dinner, get ready etc. Pre drinks would start at 9 or 10, hit town midnight ish. You sound like my mother! Fgf10 (talk) 07:09, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Citations, please? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:29, 24 May 2016 (UTC)


 * My hypothesis is that having the energy to dance after midnight suggests a certain class background and/or a bohemian rejection of the bourgeois work ethic (which only people with investment income can afford to do without consequence). Hence the "hipness" or prestige of the practice.  Of course, many people who engage in it do have to get up early to work, if not the next day then the day after, and they pay a price for it in their work performance.  But by dancing after midnight, they are signaling to potential mates that they don't have to worry about work.  Marco polo (talk) 14:16, 23 May 2016 (UTC)


 * When I was a young poor student, we frequently went out at midnight on a weekend. Rejecting the working class or anything that "deep" never crossed our minds when deciding when we'll go dancing. We just had the time and the energy and the friends that used to do it too, that's all there was to it. now I'm older, have a job and a kid and a wife and a mortgage, going out dancing at midnight and coming home at 6am is the last thing I'd want to do right now. Vespine (talk) 23:54, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Probably something to do with the adolescent body clock ""There's a biological predisposition for going to bed late and getting up late."   Alansplodge (talk) 20:35, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Do drug addicts ever love the substance?
Hug their 10 kilo brick of coke and spoon it while sleeping and sort of fall in love with it.. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:33, 22 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Like the male spider cuddling up to the female spider after mating? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:45, 22 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Spider falling in love with cocaine (actually just hiding in sand but it really, really looks high). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 04:24, 23 May 2016 (UTC)


 * If the drug is alcohol, then Billy Joel thought so, in the Piano Man:


 * "There's an old man sittin' next to me,
 * Makin' love to his tonic and gin"


 * (Makes me wonder just how big those bottle openings are.) StuRat (talk) 23:08, 22 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Hug a cask of gin and alcoholically drink it like a vampire until she runs out.. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:23, 24 May 2016 (UTC)


 * There was the sailor in The Blue Lagoon who floated off, wrapped around a barrel of gin. Didn't work out well for him.  As I recall, he ended up with a bad case of crabs. StuRat (talk) 03:54, 24 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Somebody's been watching too much Harold and Kumar. :) Wnt (talk) 03:54, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Landscape Drama and Music
Can we extend the Gertrude Stein's theory of Landscape drama to the musical perception? Since both of these forms are tied with the time, so a same perspective towards both may be possible. Do you know any same theory in music that view the musical piece as a non-linear system of inter-related components? Thank you for any answer... 151.240.10.46 (talk) 21:24, 22 May 2016 (UTC)


 * This seems to be roughly about Stein's concept of Landscape drama and also about opera music, perhaps it will be of interest. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:07, 23 May 2016 (UTC)