Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2016 October 4

= October 4 =

Commutation of penal servitude in England in the 1850s
I've come upon a couple of pages which I'm finding it hard to link. The Rev. George Radcliffe was had up for fraud in 1858, and sentenced to ten years in prison. A diligent historian, citing census records, puts what looks very much like the same man, Rev. George Radcliffe Jr. in Kensington in 1861. Is it likely that a Reverend sent down for 10 years in 1858 would have been released by 1861? --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:07, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
 * It could be that he was handed over to the CofE for internal disciplining (even after Benefit of Clergy was abolished). The CofE would then advise for them to leave the area and retire or (in extreme cases) be defrocked depending on the applicable canon law at that time as enacted in ecclesiastical court. From minor searching I can see that he was indeed retired and living in Kensington in 1861 and died in 1862. Nanonic (talk) 06:32, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
 * See also Appeals from the Crown Court. Alansplodge (talk) 08:49, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks both; who knows. He was banged to rights, so an appeal seems less likely. It's most odd. --Tagishsimon (talk) 04:44, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

Timeline of the future assuming global warming doesn't happen
Has anyone ever predicted the future or made a timeline of the future using the counter factual that global warming doesn't happen?Uncle dan is home (talk) 02:53, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Pick any science fiction from before roughly 1970, when the topic entered the pubic consciousness - and plenty later ones. I just finished Beggars in Spain (going back to 1991). It is set in the time period from roughly 2008 to 2080, and global warming does not play a major role. If, on the other hand, you want a counterfactual in which global warming is a major topic, but all the paranoid conspiracy theories about scientists going for world dictatorship are true, there is State of Fear - neither funny nor true, but very much on message. Or, for a good read, go with The Forgotten Enemy by Arthur C. Clarke. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:06, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
 * In Fallen Angels (science fiction novel) by Larry Niven, attempts to prevent global warming are too successful and cause an ice age.--Wikimedes (talk) 03:31, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Nordic Model and Communism
What's the difference between the Nordic model and communism?

202.92.114.74 (talk) 04:13, 4 October 2016 (UTC)


 * About the same difference as, say, between a troll (and an orc in Tolkein). The Nordic model is free market capitalism with a comprehensive welfare state and collective bargaining at the national level. Communism is a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money, and the state. See? Not the same things at all. --Tagishsimon (talk) 04:25, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Did you mean to open the parenthesis after 'orc'? —Tamfang (talk) 07:28, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
 * What's the difference between a troll? One of its legs is both the same.  Sorry, I tried to make a more clever adaptation of the "duck" joke, but I couldn't think of anything trolls have in pairs that is to a troll as a leg is to a duck. --Trovatore (talk) 07:44, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
 * You should start by reading our articles on the Nordic model and Communism, and then let us know if the distinction is still unclear to you. It's very worth noting, however, that "communism" is a catch all term for an entire ideology encompassing many conflicting schools of thought. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:27, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

Is the OP Bowei Huang?Uncle dan is home (talk) 06:21, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Is Uncle dan another returning user who is intentionally masking his identity so we don't recognize him? -- Jayron 32 13:41, 4 October 2016 (UTC)


 * How about if we ask what the Nordic nations and former Soviet Union have in common ? Let's see, they both get freakin' cold in winter ? StuRat (talk) 21:28, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Capital of Northern Cyprus
{Help me} What is the capital of Northern Cyprus when it is located in Europe? — Preceding unsigned comment added by SaimaBukhari (talk • contribs) 05:44, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
 * We have an article on Northern Cyprus that answers basic questions like "what is the capital?" If you meant to ask what the capital would be were it universally agreed to be a part of some other country (say, the Republic of Cyprus, as everyone but Turkey would explain), then it's capital would be that other country's capital.  Ian.thomson (talk) 05:54, 4 October 2016 (UTC)


 * (ec) I'm afraid your question is unclear. What do you mean by "when it is located in Europe"? First of all Cyprus isn't in Europe, geographically; it is an island off the coast of Asia. Or do you mean "what will be the capital if and when it joins the European Union"? Technically, it already is part of the European Union, or at least it is so de iure according to the views of the Republic of Cyprus, which was claiming the entire island as its legal territory when it joined the EU in 2004. The only way for Northern Cyprus to become part of the European Union in practice will be if it achieves some form of reunification with the rest of Cyprus. In any case, the question of its capital in this or other cases is easy: the capital is of both Cypriot states is Nicosia, and that is likely to remain so no matter how their legal status develops in future. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:56, 4 October 2016 (UTC)


 * See also Reference_desk/Archives/Humanities/2016 September 23 from when the same user asked the same question. Nanonic (talk) 06:35, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

Congregationalist/Presbyterian/Calvinist
I have been trying to find the perfect source that described the religious denominational differences of the missionaries who came to Hawaii between 1820 and 1848 (aka the American Board of Commissioners for Foreign Missions) but I am finding a giant problem. Most sources don't seem to give a damn about the denominational differences and seem to just pick and choose either using Congregationalist or Calvinist. The best source (Colonizing Hawai'i: The Cultural Power of Law) I have found so far states "Although not restricted to any denomination, most of the missionaries were Congregationalists and a smaller number were Presbyterians" but speaks nothing about Calvinism. I know these all fall under the Reformed Church movement and the ABCFM may not have cared too much about denominations like the London Missionary Society (which was also non-denominational). The generalization (which I need sources for) that I have drawn up is that Calvinist referred to the teaching style while the missionaries were of the Congregationalist and Presbyterian denomination. What I desire is help with finding a source that uses all the above three terms and describe denominational differences specifically about the American mission in Hawaii in detail.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:48, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
 * "Calvinism" is a theology, not a denomination. "Congregational" and "Presbyterian" are denominations, both of which historically have Calvinist theological roots.  However Congregational churches, almost by definition, follow congregational rule, and so the theology tends to vary from church to church.  The Presbyterian model, being based on presbyters ("elders", "bishops"), has more structural tools with which to maintain theological uniformity, but I don't think mainstream Presbyterian churches are really very strictly Calvinist anymore.  They might have been in 1820–1848. --Trovatore (talk) 08:23, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you for that explanation that was something along the line of what I was guessing to be true...But can anybody find a source/reference that summarizes this point in the case for Hawaii. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 08:29, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Note that in England, the English Presbyterians and the Congregational Church joined together as the United Reformed Church in the 1972, so I suspect that their outlook has many points of similarity. I believe that the difference is chiefly historical, Presbyterianism grew out of the Reformation in Scotland, while Congregationalism was one of the offsprings of the Puritan movement in England, but both followed a Calvinist model. I'm not finding a succinct source at the moment, but I'll have a look tonight, unless anybody else is more successful. Alansplodge (talk) 12:54, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
 * An extremely detailed description of the differences from a Presbyterian viewpoint can be found at Our Monthly Magazine, Volume 3 (p. 275) from 1871. Alansplodge (talk) 15:17, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
 * This page by the United Church of Christ (the modern descendant of the Congregationalists) has background on the early American Board of Commissioners for Foreign Missions but only a little about Hawaii. Rmhermen (talk) 17:14, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you all for the input and sources thus far, but I still don't think these sources can be used specifically for the Hawaiian missionaries. I'm still looking to find a succinct source which mentions the Calvinist theology and Congregational and Presbyterian denominations in context of Hawaii during this period. KAVEBEAR (talk) 22:32, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
 * This page says: "The early missionaries to Hawaii (or Sandwich) Islands were sent by the American Board of Commissioners for Foreign Missions, a Congregational and Presbyterian organization headquartered in Boston." So it looks as though they were presenting a common front, even at that early stage. Alansplodge (talk) 08:26, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Not sure what you are looking for exactly, it is starting to look to me like you want a source to prove "the pope is Catholic". German Reformed, Congregationalist and Presbyterian are all Calvinists. No single source may exist. Rmhermen (talk) 16:34, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

Global protection of elephants, EU block
I came across this article, but as this source is notoriously anti-EU I would like to know if the info is really objectively true. [] It basically says that Britain was trying to increase protection of elephants, but that other EU countries didn't support this attempt.

Is this true that this particular measure in the article, of upgrading global protection, really would be effective and is it possible to know which countries in the EU supported it too and which did not? Also, does anyone know why exactly the EU (or those dissenting countries therein) isn't supporting this measure? Thanks, ZygonLieutenant (talk) 15:10, 4 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Re the effectiveness of the measure and the arguments pro and con, the BBC has some context, including the positions of supporters such as Gabon and Botswana (mainly that only a continent-wide stance would be effective in reducing poaching in affected countries) and those against the idea such as South Africa (mainly that poaching isn't a problem in all countries so a blanket approach is too much - but also that a legal ivory trade can prevent poaching by providing an incentive for conservation). For some sources outside Europe, look at these: US, Australia, Namibia.
 * Re specific EU countries, the BBC also says the EU voted as a block so all 28 of their votes were counted against, regardless of the stance of individual EU countries.Taknaran (talk) 17:16, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

Rowena E. Archer thesis
'The Mowbrays, Earls of Nottingham and Dukes of Norfolk to 1432,' DPhil thesis, Univ. Oxf., 1984- anyone got a copy of it?
 * would save a trip to the Bodleian, which can be Lubyankaesque at the best of times. Cheers, Muffled Pocketed  17:56, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Check people over at WP:REX. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:04, 4 October 2016 (UTC)


 * This says it's unavailable on EThOS (the online thesis service of the British Library), so I am sceptical that any electronic copy exists. SemanticMantis (talk) 19:11, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks to both of you. All this time here and I didn't know about the rex page! Yeah Oxbridge don't participate in ethos (they pretend that's for reasons of copyright) so you might be correct about no ecopy existing. Cheers though! Muffled  Pocketed  03:40, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Kabul tombstone, William Hicks, 1666
In John Keay's Where Men and Mountains Meet there is a reference to a gravestone in Kabul to one William Hicks who "departed this lyfe" in 1666. There is a little more information here where it is described as being "close to the shrine of Shah Shahid, in the burial ground east of the gate of the same name, and within some two hundred yards of it". I would be interested to know if it survives, or if there are any pictures of it. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 23:24, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
 * This says it is opposite from some place called the "Peshawur Gate", which I am assuming has some bearing on Peshawar. It seems to claim that the Hicks in question is the son of William and Elizabeth Hicks, though not William Hicks himself, merely "Hicks".  This source seems to imply him to be "T. Hicks".  This source has the full epitaph, but says "Here lyes the body of Joseph Hicks, the son of Thomas Hicks, and Eldith, who departed this lyfe the eleventh of October, 1666".  That last one has a cite to "Masson's Travels in Afghanistan, Volume II", and calls the location just inside the gate of Bala Hissar, Kabul.  This would of course be Charles Masson.  This source has the same epitaph.  So there are some more sources to explore.  -- Jayron 32 04:15, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks. One of those was the work I linked to, and which discusses the variant readings and identifies a likely candidate ;p Do you have the page number for the Ben Macintyre book (The Man Who Would Be King: The First American in Afghanistan also entituled Josiah the Great: The True Story of The Man Who Would Be King) as I can only see the front cover on the link supplied.? DuncanHill (talk) 13:41, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Page 119 on the printing I can read. -- Jayron 32 01:34, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
 * It is also mentioned by Godfrey Thomas Vigne, in his book: A personal narrative of a visit to Ghuzni, Kabul, and Afghanistan, and of a residence at the court of Dost Mohamed, with notices of Runjit Sing, Khiva, and the Russian expedition (1840) page 209-210 "At a burial-ground, opposite the Peshawur Gater of Kabul, is a tombstone, on which is -cut5 in English letters, the name of ~ Hicks, the son of William and Elizabeth Hicks, p210 GENII AND By its date, if I mistake not, he must have lived a hundred and fifty years ago, I could never learn any thing of his history. It may be inferred, that he was not alone when he died, unless we suppose him to have written out his own epitaph ; but if so, his native place would have been mentioned". Abbie444 (talk) 13:29, 15 August 2023 (UTC)