Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2017 April 19

= April 19 =

Sodaless Sunday
Can someone help me identify the newspaper mentioned here and pictured here File:Sanford B. Dole holding newspaper.jpg?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:01, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I did some searching through Newspapers.com. The site requires a subscription to search, but you can get a free 7-day trial. What I found:
 * The "Two Killed, Thirteen Hurt" story is from May 2, 1902. The incident was in Clyde, though the story is reported from Syracuse, NY. I found a story on it on the front page of the May 3 edition of the Philadelhpia Inquirer (see middle bottom). This isn't the newspaper you're looking for, but maybe more details about that story will help.
 * I found a half match that might be what you're looking for: the front page of the May 3, 1902 edition of The Boston Post (see clipping here). At the bottom left, you can see an identical Sodaless Sundays story - same text, formatting, etc. The problem is that the "Two Killed, Thirteen Hurt" story does not appear below it. I don't know much about newspapers, but I wonder if there were two editions of that day's paper. Seems plausible.
 * Hope that helps! ~ Super  Hamster  Talk Contribs 06:44, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Both those stories appear to be national stories from a news service. (The "Two Killed..." story appears on the Boston paper as well, just placed differently.)
 * This makes sense, since in 1902, Dole was still serving in Hawaii, and so would probably not be reading about local Boston news. Now that User:SuperHamster has nailed down the time frame. (First week of May 1902) I recommend checking either local Hawaiian papers, or national papers around those dates. (Perhaps look a little later for the Hawaiian paper, I'm not sure how quick news would have arrived out there.) ApLundell (talk) 17:12, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Dole and the white elites in Honolulu read newspapers from across the world and the US since it was a port town also he was educated and had family in the northeast as well. So I wouldn't be surprise if this was a New England paper.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:30, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
 * It's curious: the two Sodaless Sundays stories appear to be identically formatted, as Hamster says, except that the Boston Post one clearly has a vertical hairline between the two columns, while zooming in on the Sanford B. Dole photo seems to show that there's no hairline. Still, the image is not perfectly sharp at that level of detail, so maybe the hairline is there but not visible, even though I think the image it looks sharp enough that that shouldn't happen. Anyway, since the headline says "tomorrow" it has to have come from a Saturday paper, and if the formatting is the same, you would think it has to be either another edition of that day's Post or an affiliated paper produced at the same printing plant. --76.71.6.254 (talk) 07:44, 19 April 2017 (UTC)


 * What Lundell says above (but posted after my item) makes sense. But were news stories in 1902 distributed nationally in a way that included typesetting information, so that the same story might appear formatted identically in unconnected papers? --76.71.6.254 (talk) 17:52, 19 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Image plates were shared. There is no reason that an article plate couldn't be shared. It would depend on the article. If it was breaking news, it would be sent by wire and typeset in office. It was a filler article, it could be sent by mail as a plate. The problem would be that the text couldn't be altered. So, while I don't see a reason it couldn't be done, I don't see much incentive to do it. 209.149.113.5 (talk) 14:47, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Israel and the Iraq war
Did Israel ever try to pressure the United States into fighting the Iraq war(the war which took place from 2003 onwards)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.233.120.59 (talk) 08:13, 19 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Israel was more preoccupied with Iran by that time. I'm sure there were some individuals in Israel who weren't sad to see Saddam get his comeuppance, but the war as a whole ended up strengthening Iran... AnonMoos (talk) 13:39, 19 April 2017 (UTC)


 * While many influential Israelis and their supporters backed sanctions and war on Iraq, they have long since denied backing the war and vilify those who say that Israel/AIPAC did lobby in support of the war as antisemites. While some congress members, AIPAC leaders, and journalists have stated that AIPAC lobbied congress to go to war, others seem to argue that the lobbying was being done by private people who coincidentally work for AIPAC/Israel. 2001:1970:5DE1:6A00:11AF:371E:C8DD:94FA (talk) 02:51, 20 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Any who did lobby for it were pretty stupid, since Iran was far more of a threat than Saddam at that point, and it was fairly predictable that the war would end up strengthening Iran's relative position. AnonMoos (talk) 04:18, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Most would say it was stupid as hundreds of thousands died for no greater good. The ongoing conflict which resulted from the invasion of Iraq has been a boon to nationalist Israeli as it distracts the world from the occupation of Palestine. If there was peace, stability, and wealth across the middle east more people would question why Israeli troops don't return back to Israel. 2001:1970:5DE1:6A00:11AF:371E:C8DD:94FA (talk) 05:41, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

I am not certain why would Israel support the Iraq War. The article on the Multi-National Force – Iraq lists which countries were involved in the conflict by sending troops: Albania, Armenia, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Denmark, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Estonia, Georgia, Honduras, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Japan, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Republic of Macedonia, Moldova, Mongolia, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Singapore, Slovakia, South Korea, Spain, Thailand, Tonga, Ukraine, United Kingdom, and United States. Israel never send anyone.

According to the article on Iraq–Israel relations:
 * "In 2003, a US-UK led coalition of nations toppled Hussein's government in an effort called Operation Iraqi Freedom. Although, Israel was not included in the coalition, there were indications for its support. According to John Kerry, Netanyahu (as a private citizen) was profoundly forward-leaning and outspoken about the importance of invading Iraq. It was reported in the Washington Post that Israel is urging United States' officials not to delay a military strike against Iraq's Saddam Hussein. It was also reported that Israeli intelligence provided Washington with alarming reports about Iraq's alleged program to develop weapons of mass destruction."
 * "On the contrary, some have argued that Israel did not have much role in pushing for the war. According to former US undersecretary of defense Douglas Feith, Israeli officials did not push their American counterparts to initiate the war in Iraq. In an interview with Ynet, Feith stated that "what you heard from the Israelis was not any kind of advocacy of war with Iraq" and that "[w]hat you heard from Israeli officials in private discussions was that they were not really focused on Iraq... [t]hey were much more focused on Iran." " Dimadick (talk) 16:29, 21 April 2017 (UTC)


 * By the way, you can see in the Iraq–Israel relations article that Iraq's armed forces participated in attacks against Israel on various occasions over a 25-year period before Israel ever lifted a finger against Iraq... AnonMoos (talk) 12:37, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Researching the military formation of a WW2 US officer when the source is wrong
According to his obituary, American historian Otto Paul Pflanze "serve[d] as 1st lieutenant in the Air Corps of the U.S. Army [from 1942] until 1946." That's obviously wrong, as the United States Army Air Corps didn't exist anymore and had turned into the United States Army Air Force by then. So it seems obvious that he has served in the United States Army Air Force, but just by conclusion this is not exactly a sourced information. How can this be definitely ensured? And what might be the reason for this error? --KnightMove (talk) 09:50, 19 April 2017 (UTC)


 * From the United States Army Air Corps article: "The Congress did not dis-establish the Army Air Corps as a combat arm until 26 July 1947, when the National Security Act of 1947 (61 Stat. 502) became law. Most members of the Army Air Forces also remained members of the Air Corps. In May 1945, 88 percent of officers serving in the Army Air Forces were commissioned in the Air Corps, while 82 percent of enlisted members assigned to AAF units and bases had the Air Corps as their combat arm branch." Perhaps your source is not as obviously wrong as you think. Wymspen (talk) 11:47, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
 * OK, thank you. Follow-up question: Pflanze joined the army but in 1942. So, were officers still commissioned in the Army Air Corps, even after the creation of the Army Air Forces? If so, until when? Maybe until the AAC "ceased to have an administrative structure after 9 March 1942"? --KnightMove (talk) 15:04, 19 April 2017 (UTC)


 * According to United States Air Force, the bill was signed on July 26, 1947, but the Air Force was not formally established until September 18, 1947. (Just added to clarify that this Q is between the AAC and AAF, not involving the AF.) StuRat (talk) 15:00, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

"Feast of Victory Over Forces of Evil"
What was the date of this ex-Togo holiday commemorating a failed assassination attempt? I have read about it on multiple biographies of Gnassingbé Eyadéma but I can't find information online on what date this "feast" was celebrated. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 13:52, 19 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Looks like April 24, per . 174.88.10.107 (talk) 14:02, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Why was my answer to Medeis's question deleted

 * My answer to what? Do you mean an answer to my question?  Or a question I posted?  I see  having deleted nothing by me, only by an IP who has been blocked, and who is not me.  If something I added was removed, I would expect to be notified directly or indirectly. μηδείς (talk) 19:32, 20 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Nevermind. It seems 92's answer to my question here on Ruthenian pseudoseder's was deleted.  In any case, I see no reason why it was deemed problematic, have read it, and regret that my mother never discussed the old country with her elders, and my grandmother is deceased. This can be collapsed as a moot side matter if someone likes. μηδείς (talk) 19:56, 20 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Medeis, the link is My Yiddishe Momme McCoy. 86.176.18.81 (talk) 06:50, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
 * 'see no reason why it was deemed problematic' - Please remember WP:DENY. Nil Einne (talk) 11:44, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
 * WP:DENY is irrelevant.  See Special:Diff/776653923 81.147.142.113 (talk) 15:05, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Mysterious Image of Lima, Peru
Hi. I'm trying to figure out as much information as possible from this image of Lima, Peru (see ). Can someone help me find the author, art medium (is it a watercolor or colored print?), date, and (if possible) a reliable source (maybe where an art collection where the image may be at). I've been searching around for about an hour, and have thus far only found a black-and-white print of the same image, but with the name "Une Rue de Valladolid a Lima." Please help resolve this mystery!--128.120.145.192 (talk) 16:32, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
 * 1836 "A street of Valledolid in Lima" It was an engraving made by a crew member of the French ship La Bonite from 1836.  We don't have an article on the ship, but I did find it referenced in Charles Gaudichaud-Beaupré, who was a French naturalist on board the ship.  It appears the ship was part of a circumnavigation expedition, similar to the types taken by Captain Cook and Charles Darwin, to catalog and observe nature and cultures around the world.  That should give you a start on researching if the exact artist can be found.  -- Jayron 32 17:07, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
 * More: Auguste-Nicolas Vaillant was also on that expedition, and penned a work titled "Voyage autour du monde execute sur la corvette la Bonite " or "Voyage around the world aboard the Corvette La Bonite" It had 11 volumes, perhaps that is the source.  -- Jayron 32 17:11, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Bam. Bichebois, Louis Philippe Alphonse created the original lithograph, it is plate 25 from Vaillant's work.  -- Jayron 32 17:17, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Super! Thank you, Jayron.--128.120.145.192 (talk) 18:05, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Why are pricy cigars blended to remove annual variation but expensive wine isn't and has vintages?
Could an oenologist create a tastier super-wine if they blended different wineries and years together? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:01, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Supply and demand and Veblen good are places to start learning about the concepts involved in pricing things, especially luxury goods like cigars and wine. -- Jayron 32 17:08, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
 * So why aren't 2003 Montecristo No. 2 cigars a tastier/worse vintage and cost more/less than the poorer/tasty 2004 cigars like how it is with good wine? Where a 2002 Chateau L'Something Bordeaux can be a good year and the 2005's taste terrible because of too little rain or whatever? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:15, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I think the question is more about the distinction between the two luxury items, not a general question about why luxury goods are expensive. ApLundell (talk) 17:18, 19 April 2017 (UTC)


 * The answer is "because people are willing to pay that." I'm not sure why that is confusing.  That's how economics works.  -- Jayron 32 17:24, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
 * There's an old joke about a balloonist who is blown off course. He descends to just fifty feet and asks a pedestrian where he is. The pedestrian shouts back "You're in a balloon!".
 * It's not confusing. It's not inaccurate. It's unhelpful.
 * This is a humanities question about the history of two industries. Replying with a basic fact about capitalism is unhelpful, however undeniably true that fact happens to be. The question is clearly asking what is different about the two products, or the history of the two markets that caused the two markets to be seemingly complete opposites of each-other.
 * There are many questions like this. If ask how the QWERTY keyboard became standard or why cars have exactly four wheels, "Because people buy them" is correct, unconfusing, but unhelpful. ApLundell (talk) 20:11, 19 April 2017 (UTC)0
 * Well, if THAT'S the case, we're left with "What is the difference between wine and cigars". You drink one.  You smoke the other.  I'm not sure where else to go.  The OP seems to be asking us why different things are different.  They are different because the sorts of things that wine drinkers look for in a product are different than what cigar smokers look for in their product.  I could answer with references how the QWERTY keyboard became standard or why cars have exactly 4 wheels.  The OP asked, essentially "Why does my keyboard cost one price, while my car costs a different price".  How are we supposed to find references that compare keyboards to cars in terms of their price?  They're different products with different markets.  -- Jayron 32 23:40, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
 * User:Jayron32: "You drink one. You smoke the other.  I'm not sure where else to go."
 * Really? Well, since it's apparently trivially obvious to you, perhaps you could explain to us dullards how this obvious difference has caused the effect described in the original question. Why has it become desirable for cigar vintages to be blended, while it has simultaneously become desirable for wine vintages not to be blended. (Yes, yes. Obviously, because people buy those. But why? What's the history of those market forces?)
 * You assert here that the mechanical difference between how the two products are used ("You drink one. You smoke the other.") is the answer to the question. I'd love to see a citation for that.  (If I had been forced to guess, I would have thought it had to do with how the two products were produced and/or marketed historically rather than how they're consumed. Clearly you have sources that say otherwise, and I'm excited to read them.) ApLundell (talk) 15:18, 21 April 2017 (UTC)


 * You've forgotten part of the joke. The guy in the balloon says, "You must be an engineer - because what you've told me is factually correct but useless." And the guy down below says, "And you must be an executive - because you're the one that's lost, but somehow now it's my problem." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:09, 19 April 2017 (UTC)


 * As you may or may not know, cheaper regional wines with a brand image (for example, Mateus Rosė) sold in large quantities (so not 'fine') are routinely blended – usually by varying the proportions of wines from the various suppliers, which due to both their terroirs and weather variations over the growing season can be a little different from one another – in order to achieve a fairly consistent taste from year to year. Sherries are also blended from casks of different characters and ages for the same reason, as are Belgian Geuze lambic beers. (Lambic beers are inherently variable due to their production process.)
 * The production of fine wines has always been focused on the product of a single year's production from a single winery (though in practice vintage wines often employ a small degree of blending), and the resulting products are more valued than blended wines, so the attempt to blend two fine wines would not appeal to their usual connoisseurs, and would be highly speculative, in effect risking the loss of two good products with a ready-made market in order to produce what might be something inferior to both. However, I'd be surprised if no-one has ever tried this on a small, non-commercial scale. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.217.249.244 (talk) 02:28, 20 April 2017 (UTC)


 * 90.217.249.244 covers wine well. Regarding the blending of tobaccos in cigars, this seems to be a good introduction.  Here and here also seem to cover the topic well.  -- Jayron 32 15:44, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Question about Canada's First Nations
Where Canada's First Nations people in Canada at at the same the Ancient Egyptians built the Pyramids, Sphinx and had pharaohs? 184.71.183.70 (talk) 17:21, 19 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Some people were in Canada at the time, but they may not be the same groups that are there now, as there were multiple waves of immigration from Asia. First Nations says "First Nations peoples had settled and established trade routes across what is now Canada by 1,000 BC to 500 BC.".  However, the first humans in what is now Canada arrived 15,000 years ago or even earlier, according to Aboriginal_peoples_in_Canada.


 * By comparison, Ancient Egypt is defined over the dates 3100 BC - 332 BC, so there was complete overlap of the two periods. StuRat (talk) 17:23, 19 April 2017 (UTC)


 * It is rare to find a group of people which is defined, distinct, and isolated from other groups which remain in one place and isolated for time frames that long. Human history is one of continuous migration, colonization, displacement, temporary isolation followed by periods of interbreeding, etc.  In broad terms, the ancestors of the First Nations were in North America during the time period of Ancient Egypt; the last closing of the Bering strait land bridge was 11,000 years ago, or twice again as long as the earliest existance of Ancient Egypt; between 11,000 years ago and 1000 years ago there would have been no genetic exchange between the Americas and Eurasia-Africa, and the populations would have been distinct.  (though there are some fringe theories of pre-Viking contacts between the hemispheres, i.e. Kon Tiki and other Pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact theories).  Saying THAT, however, is not the same as saying that the cultures we recognize from modern times among Canadian First Nations (i.e. the Cree or the Blackfoot) existed 11,000 years ago, or even 1,000 years ago.  As far as we know, there was no meaningful group that we can call "Cree" from the same time as ancient Egyptian, which is fine, because there were also no French or Scottish or Spaniards from that time period either.  Culture is highly connected to time and place, and making long-range comparisons between cultures separated by millenia is impossible.  So, to answer the question, the answer is 1) Yes, there were humans in Canada who were the ancestors of the First Nations but 2) There were likely no recognizable cultures from specific First Nation groups who we would recognize from that time period as existing today.  -- Jayron 32 18:27, 19 April 2017 (UTC)


 * See also the Paleo-Eskimos, who flourished from 2500-1500 BCE, according to our article. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 12:38, 20 April 2017 (UTC)


 * In general, the Eskimo-Inuit are classified differently than First Nations in Canada. See First Nations, where the first sentence makes clear it excludes the Inuit.  -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 12:45, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Well, we have the emergence of distinct cultures in the area. The Woodland period covers parts of Canada and the United States, and there are indications of cultural continuity from 1000 BCE to 1000 CE. The era covers "a continuous development in stone and bone tools, leather crafting, textile manufacture, cultivation, and shelter construction. Many Woodland peoples used spears and atlatls until the end of the period, when they were replaced by bows and arrows". Dimadick (talk) 16:45, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Where can I fly in a DC-3?
I hope to fly in a DC-3 before I die, which will probably before the last DC-3 dies. But where? (Our article says "The very large number of civil and military operators of the DC-3/C-47s and related types makes a listing of all the airlines, air forces and other current operators impractical.") Hayttom (talk) 18:59, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I found Buffalo Airways. Cheers ✦  hugarheimur 19:29, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
 * See http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=289959 and other posts on that site which discuss the question (just search for "DC-3" or "DC3"). Note that unfortunately for you, many of the remaining DC-3s are freighters, not passenger aircraft. And of the remaining airlines with DC-3s still in passenger service, many are in places like Venezuela and Columbia, where airworthiness inspections may leave something to be desired. EDIT: Torana is correct, Buffalo Airways are apparently the last ones with a regular scheduled DC-3 passenger service. But others may still do chartered flights and special occasional flights for aircraft buffs like you. The Buffalo Airways page has the ominous message "All Passenger service has been temporarily postponed, sorry for any inconvenience." They've had some regulatory issues. You'll need to call and see what the exact situation is. According to, things do not look good. Eliyohub (talk) 20:38, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Limits of Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act
Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act provides a general immunity for a web hosting service for the actions of its users. Federal crimes and intellectual property are exceptions, but that's not my question. My question is, at what point does a user cease to be a mere "user", and become an "agent" of the service?

Take Wikipedia as a classic example. Anyone (other than banned or blocked users) can edit Wikipedia. Hence the Wikimedia foundation would enjoy the protection of the act for a regular user's actions.

But what about an admin? A bureaucrat? A steward? A member of the Arbitration committee? All of these are volunteers, appointed by the community. (Not sure about stewards? Never had to deal with them But the rest definitely are). But they carry out administrative and management tasks on the site, essentially on behalf of the Wikimedia Foundation. Would all of them fall under Section 230? Not fall under Section 230? Or would some of them fall under the section, and others not? What's the legal "test" here, so to speak, as to whether such individuals would be deemed "mere users of the site", as opposed to "agents of the site owner" (in Wikipedia's case, the Wikimedia Foundation), and thus the Foundation would be liable for their actions?

Note, I am not planning on suing the foundation or anyone else. Just curious how the law would treat such individuals, and others like them on myriad other sites, who "serve" in voluntary administrative roles, vis-a-vis liability of the site owner.

As the page is semi-protected as I write this (hey, we managed almost a full month without semi-protection! Yay!), if you don't have an account, do post your answer on the refdesk talk page. I still want to hear your views. Eliyohub (talk) 20:32, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

The Wandering Englishman of Dettingen
What is the legend of the "Wandering Englishman" which has been handed down in Dettingen to this day? DuncanHill (talk) 20:47, 19 April 2017 (UTC)


 * I found this, which tells of the ghost of an English soldier guarding the war chest which the French lost in the Battle of Dettingen. Cheers ✦  hugarheimur 22:48, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Penal inequality
Is there a formal term or word (perhaps judicial) for the worldwide difference between penalties for the same crime (e.g. as envisaged by different penal codes for the same offence, from prison sentence up to capital punishment)? Brandmeistertalk  21:37, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Sentencing disparity. -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 23:34, 19 April 2017 (UTC)