Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2017 April 25

= April 25 =

Minimum requirements of Anglicanism?
What are the minimum requirements of a church to be recognized as part of Anglicanism? I am trying to distinguish Anglicanism from Non-Conformist religions in the 19th century. What makes the Non-Conformist religions non-conforming? How does the Anglican church deal with heretics and religious dissenters? Are religious dissenters sent to the United States of America? Queen Mary I was Catholic who persecuted Protestants. Queen Elizabeth I was a Protestant who persecuted Catholics. Is the only difference between Anglicanism and Roman Catholicism that Anglicanism allows divorce (King Henry VIII) while Roman Catholicism does not? Or are there more Anglican things that makes Anglicanism Anglican? 50.4.236.254 (talk) 00:30, 25 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Our articles Anglicanism and Anglican doctrine would be good places to start. DuncanHill (talk) 00:42, 25 April 2017 (UTC)


 * The classic statement is the Thirty-nine Articles. You may also want to look at Via media... AnonMoos (talk) 05:01, 25 April 2017 (UTC)


 * There are two aspects to this, sharing the theological views of the Anglican church and also being "in communion with" the Church of England.
 * Henry VIII's Reformation was much more complex than it is ever taught in schools. He did not divorce his first wife, Catherine, he had the wedding annulled, which is different - rather than ending a marriage, annulment effectively declares that it had never taken place in the first, because it had always been an invalid marriage. The Roman Catholic church recognised this process, but Pope Clement had refused to grant or recognise an annulment for Henry and Catherine. Clement had already suffered through the Sack of Rome and either had no wish to antagonise the European dynasties any further or simply for theological reasons he refused this (Henry's marriage would firstly have been seen as invalid, as Catherine was his brother's widow, but he'd already been granted a dispensation to marry despite, and so Clement saw this as making the marriage valid and thus indissoluble). Henry wanted that annulment, so he split from Rome. Yet the new Anglican church was still (and remains) a catholic church, just no longer a Roman Catholic church, under the authority of the Pope. Henry had no great interest in Lutheran or Calvinist reforms in that theological Protestant sense, he just wanted that annulment and would change the authority of the Anglican church to get it, without necessarily anything more than changing its loyalties.
 * Then Tudor politics kicks in, and the theological basis of the Anglican church swings around in a complicated fashion, involving various persecutions of and by Roman Catholics, and the lighting of candles in Oxford. Then Stuart politics happens, and the English Civil War.
 * The Civil War period and the 17th century sees the appearance of liberation theology and is a time of a great many nonconformist [sic] religious and political groups: Diggers, Levellers, Grindletonians, Muggletonians, right through to the early albums of Billy Bragg. After the Restoration of the monarchy we see the Clarendon Code trying to restore the previous order, part of which was the 1662 Act of Uniformity and the resultant Great Ejection.
 * A Nonconformist is someone who is recognised as broadly a Protestant but outside the Act of Uniformity; hence the name, and the concept as a single group really dating from this point. But at least they were ejected, rather than burned, as they would have been a hundred years earlier, as were those Catholics under the 1559 Act of Uniformity.
 * Nonconformists were tolerated in Britain, but constrained. They had freedom of worship (particularly after the Toleration Act 1689), but were excluded from many roles in society, such as the church, public offices, university degrees and may still be required to pay taxes to a local Anglican church.
 * An important new group of Nonconformists appeared in the 18th century, including the Methodists. By the middle of the 19th century, Nonconformists began to outnumber Anglicans. From 1828 the Sacramental Test Act allowed non-Anglicans to enter politics. Nonconformists were an important group in Victorian politics, as the "Nonconformist conscience" was tied strongly first to the Whigs or their successors the Liberals, especially under Gladstone.
 * Back to your question - I note you're asking from the US. So is the "Nonconformism" you're looking at here meaning a theological difference, a hierarchical difference (there are US churches who follow broadly Anglican theology without being in communion with Canterbury) or the political groups in UK Liberalism who had their roots in religious Nonconformism? Andy Dingley (talk) 11:54, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * If he is in the U.S., the largest Anglican denomination in the U.S. is the Episcopal Church (United States). American Presbyterianism is the largest mainline group in the U.S. to have come down from English dissenters, while the United Methodist Church us the largest Wesleyan group, and the Baptists in the United States are also a large presence, those also decend from English protestant traditions from the time period Andy Dingley is discussing.  -- Jayron 32 12:03, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Presbyterianism is and was almost unknown in England. It developed on the West coast of Scotland, with roots in French Calvinism (the Auld Alliance), spreading to Northern Ireland with the Plantation, and thence to the US. English Presbyterianism did exist, but it was far, far smaller than in Scotland, secretive and little known, and had far less influence. Even today it's barely visible outside its churches, and most of these were 19th century foundations by Scots Presbyterians, rather than 17th century English. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:17, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you for that correction. -- Jayron 32 12:21, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Presbyterians had a long history in Wiltshire, particularly around the Trowbridge, Warminster, Bradford area, going back to the 17th century. They did rather overlap with various strains of Baptists, Congregationalists, and even Methodists, and now form part of the United Reformed Church. DuncanHill (talk) 14:30, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Interesting. But it may be a bit more complicated than that. Our article English Presbyterianism equates the Congregational church with ’Independents’, and says:
 * Aside from Quaker meetings, the English Dissenters styled themselves as either ‘Independent’ or ‘Presbyterian’. [The latter] regarded each chapel as just another parish church. It was this attitude which, at first, caused particular animosity towards Presbyterians from some Anglicans, who regarded them as schismatics, actively seeking to divide the Church in England. The more open attitude of Presbyterian congregations led them to appoint ministers with a more liberal viewpoint, which, amongst other factors such as their ministers being trained in the Dissenting Academies, led to a growing heterodoxy into Arminianism, Arianism, and eventually Christian Unitarianism.
 * This is further discussed in the history of British Unitarianism. Not all Presbyterian chapels were folded into the United Reformed Church. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 11:12, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
 * At this point it starts to become important to distinguish the issues of nonconformity as being either Presbyterianism (an issue of how congregations are governed) distinct from Unitarianism vs. Anglican Trinitarianism (a theological issue), or other reasons. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:49, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

How uk government works
So policy advisors and analysts research and put up options to politicians who make laws, with the support of legal experts. But who actually delivers or implements politicians decisions? Also, what do policy advisors not employed by government do? Do they all advise government in their area of expertise or do they advise leaders of their field/organisation? 194.81.217.65 (talk) 14:29, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * For the answer to your first question, see Civil Service (United Kingdom). --Viennese Waltz 14:30, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Also what role do diplomats play? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.81.217.65 (talk) 14:36, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by diplomats? A diplomat is a high level civil servant who works for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. --Viennese Waltz 14:38, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

What's the minimum amount of paper $ or £ redeemable for gov't gold right before the 1929 Crash?
Would 3 singles do it or did they only exchange multiple gold coins at once? A pound note? Did you have to go to a Federal Reserve Branch or whatever they called the US bank back then or would a small town bank do it? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 15:05, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * According to Series of 1928 (United States Currency), the smallest Gold certificate was $10.00 -- Jayron 32 15:12, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * According to Bank of England 10s note, the smallest paper currency issued by the UK was the 10 shilling note (under the old £sd system) issued in 1928, however that same article notes that banks did not redeem notes for gold weighing less than 400 ounces; according to this Britain pegged their currency to the Gold standard at a rate of £4.25 per ounce. Doing some math, that means the smallest amount of money you could get in gold was £1700.  -- Jayron 32 15:39, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * 400 troy ounces being the standard weight of a gold bar: they wouldn't cut them up for you! Wymspen (talk) 17:16, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * They could give you bullion coins of smaller weights. -- Jayron 32 19:04, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * A 0.17 gallon gold brick: something every East Ender seamstress will want to drag home! Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:03, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

International Building Code
Is the International Building Code adopted as standard by any country other than the US? ECS LIVA Z (talk) 17:24, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Read this. -- Jayron 32 19:01, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Late medieval pattern books for art
This is a topic which Wikipedia seems to lack an article on, and I can't get much information from the internet in general either. Here's a relevant post on a blog, with this quote: "In Medieval times, book illustrators aimed to produce very rich illustrations to decorate their books. For inspiration they kept pattern or model books. These books contained jottings of anything that caught the illustrator's eye: figures, animals, monsters, decorative capital letters, borders, motifs. But these weren't drawn firsthand - they were all borrowed from earlier books, paintings or glass windows. [..] Pattern books were practical tools and also helped to circulate artistic traditions and ideas around the manuscript making community. Because they were working documents, passing between many different people, few medieval pattern books have survived."

The quote apparently comes from a now-deleted page on the British Library's site.

Here's some pages on Commons from the 1504 manuscript, and here's the Helmingham Herbal which contains a lot of the same drawings in a different order. What I want to know is, are there any other examples of pattern books? We have an article for bestiary, but that's not quite the same thing, and it doesn't mention this use. I'm interested in specifically art-oriented books that might have belonged to artisans. In particular I have a very old memory of watching a documentary which talked about pattern books for parts of animals, such as a lion's feet, dragon wings, or an elephant's trunk, which would be copied repeatedly, leading to a parallel natural history with its own evolution of stylised animal parts. I'd like to find examples such books.

The blog post has this link at the end, which goes to the Web Gallery of Art. The links on that page rapidly advance into naturalistic renaissance art, though the 15th century Bohemian example seems to fit the bill. But that's only a glimpse of one book, where can I find other sources? There could be potential to create a Wikipedia article.

Card Zero (talk) 17:28, 25 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Sounds like a great article idea!
 * Medieval Illuminators and Their Methods of Work By Jonathan J. G. Alexander, Yale University Press 1992. Might need trip to print library or WP:RX to access.
 * This source suggests "model books" as another search term.
 * Materials, Methods, and Masterpieces of Medieval Art By Janetta Rebold Benton, Greenwood Publishing 2009 also uses the "model books" term.
 * Interesting reference to pattern books containing images in Ancient Egyptian style.
 * Exemplum: Model-book Drawings and the Practice of Artistic Transmission in the Middle Ages By Robert W. Scheller, Amsterdam University Press, 1995 (see also its bibliography).
 * The Grove Encyclopedia of Materials and Techniques in Art may itself provide enough material to begin an article. It refers to "The notebooks of the 13th-century French architext Villard de Honnecourt (fl c. 1220-40) occupy a unique position within the medieval graphic tradition, combining an instructional manual with theoretical precepts." (Goes on to describe him showing how to build animals from geometric shapes.) There's also a paragraph on pattern books with a few other names. Our article on de Honnecourt looks well sourced too.
 * P.S. Just for fun, you might enjoy the charming "Two Monks" series at the Toast. Start here... 174.88.10.107 (talk) 11:28, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Marquis of Bath
My Trollope ancestors come from Horningsham, a village owned by the Marquesses of Bath. In researching my family history I have noticed that in the 19th century and into the early 20th century the spelling "Marquis" was used instead of "Marquess". Was this a preference of the Thynne family, a local spelling, or what? Thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 20:58, 25 April 2017 (UTC)


 * See Marquess: In Great Britain and Ireland, the correct spelling of the aristocratic title of this rank is marquess (although for aristocratic titles on the European mainland, the French spelling of marquis is often used in English). --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:02, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Which doesn't say anything about the Baths, which is the specific case I am interested in. DuncanHill (talk) 21:24, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Neither a preference of the Thynne family nor a local spelling: it just reflects a national change of fashion. The OED's citations for the British title, as opposed to the continental one, show marques, marquess or marquesse was usual in the 16th and 17th centuries, marquis or marquiss in the 18th and 19th centuries, with marquess taking over again sometime during the 20th. Here are the later cites, showing the final change:
 * 1808  J. Austen Let. 2 Oct. (1995) 142   The Marquis has put off being cured for another year. 1845   H. H. Wilson Hist. Brit. India 1805–35 I. iii. 147   Information of the death of Marquis Cornwallis arrived in England at the end of January, 1806. 1901   Empire Rev. 1 466   First in rank come the dukes,..then follow in order of precedence, marquises, first created by Richard II. 1951   V. Heywood Brit. Titles 32   There are five ranks in the Peerage—barons, viscounts, earls, marquesses and dukes. 1987   S. Weintraub Victoria (1988) iv. 78   Lord Grosvenor had been made Marquess of Westminster.
 * --Antiquary (talk) 09:58, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks Antiquary, I have to say I prefer "marquis" myself. One thing did come to mind - in Simon Raven's Alms for Oblivion and First Born of Egypt series he (or some of his characters) deride the Marquesss Canteloupe for changing from Marquis to Marquess, and Canteloupe is to some extent based on one of the Baths. DuncanHill (talk) 14:03, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Muffetiere
What is a muffetiere? George III gave a silver one to John Richards Lapenotière after he brought the news of Trafalgar. DuncanHill (talk) 22:11, 25 April 2017 (UTC)


 * A sugar shaker.--TMCk (talk) 22:34, 25 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks - the only ghits I can find for this word are the Wikipedia Lapenotière article and articles obviously adapted from it. Earlier versions of the article said "Silver spice sprinkler" which seems more likely. The "Muffetiere" was insewrted by an anon. I'm going to change it back to spice sprinkler. DuncanHill (talk) 22:50, 25 April 2017 (UTC)


 * I can confirm that the OED knows nothing of "muffetiere". Anon was perhaps misremembering "muffineer": "A small castor with a perforated top for sprinkling salt, sugar, etc., on muffins." (A castor in this sense is not a beaver nor a furniture wheel but "A small vessel with a perforated top, from which to cast or sprinkle pepper, sugar, or the like, in the form of powder; extended to other vessels used to contain condiments at table, as in ‘a set of castors’, i.e. the castors and cruets usual in a cruet-stand.") There are other muffin-related meanings for "muffineer". I am also charmed to discover the "muffetee", a sort of mitten, wristlet, or neck-muffler. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 11:22, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Liskeard and District Museum confirms that it's a muffineer:
 * The King’s breakfast table was used to show him the disposition of the ships and to recount the events of the battle and a muffineer was used to represent HMS Victory. The King thanked Lt. Lapenotiere for the efficient and sympathetic manner in which he had discharged his duties and presented him with the silver muffineer. Some years ago descendants of Lt Lapenotiere presented this to Liskeard Town Council where it is now part of the town’s silver.
 * --Antiquary (talk) 12:40, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you both, Antiquary and Carbon Caryatid, you've cleared that up in a highly satisfactory manner. DuncanHill (talk) 13:46, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

One of Sir Walter Ralegh's judges
One of the judges at Sir Walter Ralegh's trial is reported to have later said "The justice of England has never been so degraded and injured as by the condemnation of the honourable Sir Walter Raleigh". Do we know which judge and when and in what circumstances he said it? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 23:24, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Entering the quote into Google Books suggests Francis Gawdy, although it is possibly apocryphal. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:07, 26 April 2017 (UTC)