Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2017 April 27

= April 27 =

Are there cultures/countries where people don't sniff flowers?
This is the time of year (Northern hemisphere) where I indulge myself in the pleasure of sniffing flowers. While my appreciation for many is the same as anyone's, I additionally make a point to sniff less-popular flowers such as those on common trees that occasionally seem to evoke sneezes or a sense of irritation; this is because it is my personal suspicion that flower sniffing is not a cultural practice or merely an idle, spontaneous pleasure, but a true instinct meant to induce immunological tolerance to pollen, and that the perception of floral scents as pleasant might be an adaptation to further it. Now while I haven't been in a good position to study the matter biologically, it occurs to me that a counter-example is possible based simply on known cultures: if the practice is a true instinct, there should not be any culture where it is unknown, though it is possible (like nose-picking) that there are many where it is intentionally suppressed. So... can you think of any such cultures? Wnt (talk) 00:32, 27 April 2017 (UTC)


 * I find most flowers to smell like cheap perfume. That is, not at all subtle.  So, I don't generally sniff them.  I find food-related herbal scents more pleasant, like vanilla and mint.  I am male, and somewhat suspect that the perception of flowers is gender-specific, and many men also find most flowers unpleasant smelling.  This might explain why men don't like smelling like them, but women do.  Interestingly, dogs seem to share this contempt for floral scents, and will roll in anything to get rid of it.   StuRat (talk) 00:55, 27 April 2017 (UTC)


 * ". . . many men also find most flowers unpleasant smelling. This might explain why men don't like smelling like [sic] them, . . ." News to this 60-y-o male – I've never encountered this proposition before now, though of course some individuals may dislike particular flower scents. If true this would be an interesting sex-based phenomenon, so could you direct us to some citations? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.217.249.244 (talk) 05:07, 27 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Note that, in the US at least, different scents are sold for men than women, containing things like musk rather than floral scents. This is why scented products, like perfume and deodorant, are rarely unisex. StuRat (talk) 15:04, 27 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Of course, because men and women have different preferences for what their opposite sex should smell like, and scent themselves accordingly, but that has nothing to do with whether or not men enjoy the scent of flowers. Indeed, if female perfumes are "floral", it suggests that men do like floral scents. I'm still waiting for your Reliable Sources demonstrating that "many men . . . find most flowers unpleasant smelling." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.217.249.244 (talk • contribs) 18:56, 27 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Women don't just like floral scents in perfume, but also in cleaning products, etc., that the men don't smell: . That site says that women prefer a variety of single-note fragrances, while men prefer spicy or complex scents.  I wonder if the food-related scents I mentioned, like mint and vanilla, fit in the latter category. StuRat (talk) 15:20, 28 April 2017 (UTC)


 * You're misrepresenting your own source which is actually not only not supporting your claim but debunking it: "...men are typically attracted to complex floral and spicy fragrances, women to simple, single-note fragrances." --TMCk (talk) 15:38, 28 April 2017 (UTC)


 * I didn't misrepresent it at all. Read down further to where it talks about scented products being preferred by women: "By nature, women are a more interested, hence larger and more renewable segment of the market for scented items of all kinds.  It is easier and more profitable to sell scents to women than men."  Note that "of all kinds" includes floral scents.  StuRat (talk) 16:33, 28 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Contrary to your personal believe that you presented as fact, men do like floral scents and your own source that you've now provided confirms your mistake. It's as simple as that.--TMCk (talk) 17:27, 28 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Floral scents bear a relation to the state of the natural world, and not only the state of the flower producing the scent, but to the overall biological environment. I think we should not be so narrowly focussed on whether or not we like a given scent but rather we should be focussed on the amount of information that all scents of biological origin provide for us, potentially at least. A person living close to nature could potentially find clues in prevailing scents to other biological phenomena that may be taking place in other areas of the environment. Bus stop (talk) 01:30, 27 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Sure, and smelling fruit to see if it's ripe makes sense, but what valuable info do we gain from smelling flowers ? StuRat (talk) 02:15, 27 April 2017 (UTC)


 * You or I might not be able to determine anything from smelling flowers, but a person attuned to the signals and cues of the natural world would be able to deduce the status of various other biological processes in other organisms as well as the state of or the past history of the non-biological natural world. I can't give you examples but we know that in an ecosystem there are interrelationships between organisms as well as effects of for instance recent weather conditions. Flowering may take place earlier or later in the season depending on temperature and water availability or scarcity. Obviously temperature and water availability would have impact on other organisms as well. Modern humans may have little awareness of and sensibilities to the natural world. But people more integrated into the natural world would understand aspects of the ecosystem from the olfactory signals from for instance flowers. Bus stop (talk) 03:42, 27 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Never noticed Inuit smelling flowers in this part of the country. That is not because we don't have flowers there, are plenty and here and some are edible. Of course this area Victoria Island (Canada) is just a small part of where Inuit/Eskimos live so elsewhere in Nunavut, Greenland, Northwest Territories, Alaska and Russia people may well smell them. Now I'm curious for spring/summer to arrive so I can actually find out if they do smell. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 05:16, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Aside from cultures living in climate inhospitable to flowers (Far North), I found this, p. 336-337: "The Dhammapada makes it clear that flowers, like other beautiful objects, are potential temptations or distractions. Mara the tempter lets fly a flower-pointed arrow, a notion borrowed from Kama... More explicitly, it is written, 'Death carries off a man who is gathering flowers and whose mind is distracted, as a flood carries off a sleeping village". Brandmeistertalk  11:31, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
 * The reference is to "gathering flowers" while the question posed concerns the olfactory relationship to flowers. Or at least that is my interpretation of the question. It should be noted that some flowers can be edible, therefore the cautionary note concerning gathering flowers seems questionable. The reference is to idly enjoying flowers. But I think that knowledge of the environment is anything but frivolous to people who live immersed in nature. Flowering plants provide such human inhabitants with important information that can increase the possibility of survival in an ecological niche. Bus stop (talk) 13:45, 27 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Huh. Someone has actually written a Cultural History of Smell (apparently also at ). You will have to read it, though, to find out if they mention a culture that avoids flowers. 174.88.10.107 (talk) 14:46, 27 April 2017 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) Flowers evolved pleasant scents to attract pollinators (citation needed). I expect it's a happy coincidence that bees and people both enjoy sweet foods, so what smells good to bees also smells good to humans. At high elevations (I think above 10,000 feet, it's been a few years since I heard the ranger talk at Rocky Mountain National Park), there aren't many bees, the main pollinators are flies, and the flowers smell like rotten meat. So you might look at regions of high elevation for cultures that don't enjoy sniffing flowers.--Wikimedes (talk) 15:32, 27 April 2017 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's a coincidence that bees and people both like sugar. Sugar is quick source of energy, so any animal that can digest it is likely to seek it out.  Too much sugar is bad, of course, but it's difficult to get too much in the conditions in which we evolved. StuRat (talk) 16:30, 28 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Of course. The coincidence is that the scent that was evolved to attract bees also attracts other organisms, in this case humans.  Was that not clear?  Or perhaps you think that the underlying reasons for this coincidence are relevant to OP's question?--Wikimedes (talk) 20:09, 28 April 2017 (UTC)


 * I took "I expect it's a happy coincidence that bees and people both enjoy sweet foods" to mean exactly that. StuRat (talk) 21:16, 28 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Fair enough.--Wikimedes (talk) 02:35, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

WWII maps
I'm looking for maps produced in 1941-1943 that's similar to this one. Specially I'm looking from ones from the allied countries and ones from Nazi Germany. I want to compare and contrast how the different countries and territories are labeled.

Presumably all the allied countries would still use the original country name and original borders since they don't recognize the Axis power's illegal occupation. ECS LIVA Z (talk) 01:45, 27 April 2017 (UTC)


 * I believe the Nazis did keep most of their conquered nations intact, so the names would be the same, except in German. Exceptions were for regions they annexed, like Czechoslovakia, part of Poland, and part of France.  See Areas annexed by Nazi Germany.  You might also be interested in Generalplan Ost, their eventual plan for Eastern Europe. StuRat (talk) 02:19, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, the Nazi side is of great interest to me as well. Did they 1. label the original country names, 2. label it by the administrations like in (Reichskommissariat Ukraine, Reichskommissariat Ostland, etc), or 3. label the entire thing "Deutsches Reich"?
 * I see lots of reproduction maps both on Wikipedia and elsewhere on the internet, but I have not found a single clearly labeled map from 1941-1943 so far. ECS LIVA Z (talk) 03:14, 27 April 2017 (UTC)


 * The Category:German exonyms and its included lists will be useful to you. I'd suggest reviewing and familiarizing yourself with the names in regions of interest even before you study the related map. -- Deborahjay (talk) 05:36, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

"I believe the Nazis did keep most of their conquered nations intact"

With the Axis occupation of Greece, the intentions of the three occupying powers (Germany, Italy, Bulgaria) were different.
 * The German occupation zone was supposed to be occupied for the duration of the war, and then controlled through puppet governments. No plans for annexation. The puppet government was called the Hellenic State.
 * Italian leadership disagreed about what to do with the Italian occupation zone, though there were plans for the post-war annexation of at least part of the area. Epirus was supposed to be annexed by the Italian-controlled Albania.
 * Bulgaria pretty much declared the Bulgarian occupation zone to be fully annexed, using as a pretext its territorial claims in the area from the Balkan Wars. It led a campaign of Bulgarization of the local population, banned the use of the Greek language, and deported the supposed representatives of Greek authority (mayors, landowners, industrialists, school-teachers, judges, lawyers, priests, Hellenic Gendarmerie officers). Much of the property of the Greek population was confiscated and granted to Bulgarian peasants, and settlers from Bulgaria were brought in the area. Dimadick (talk) 09:59, 27 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Here's one of Central/Eastern Europe: . According to the website I found it on it's from a 1941 book called "Landvolk im Werden" (‘The people's country in the process of formation’). The arrows represent (proposed) plans to resettle Germans to annexed Poland. Interestingly occupied Western Europe is marked as if they were fully independent countries. Alcherin (talk) 10:47, 27 April 2017 (UTC)


 * That's because Germany's aims were not necessarily to take over all of Europe, but rather to re-establish what they saw as Germany's natural borders (see German Question for some historical background). In the west, this only really included Alsace-Lorraine, while in central and eastern Europe it included places like Austria, the Sudetenland, Baltic lands (formerly Teutonic States and Prussian lands), etc.  At best, Germany intended friendly or puppet regimes in other countries, but intended them to be at least nominally independent.  -- Jayron 32 11:03, 27 April 2017 (UTC)


 * There's a few contemporary maps linked on this site, such as . Alcherin (talk) 12:00, 27 April 2017 (UTC)


 * See also Greater Germanic Reich. Alansplodge (talk) 12:42, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Has a fight stopped IRL for everyone to look at a rolling explosive or NCBR weapon then started the instant the danger passed?
That happened in a James Bond movie or Operation Condor or something. A chemical weapons container or bomb is dislodged by the kung fu and everyone stops what they're hitting to watch it roll. The instant it hits the wall intact everyone starts fighting again. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 01:49, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I doubt it's been more than a TV Trope. Either with an NCBR, CBRN, NBC, ABC or NRBQ. In a serious fight between trained badasses, the first one to stop and look away generally dies. Chins should stay down, hands up and eyes forward. Less serious fights between average Joes are more likely to allow timeouts, but typically don't take place around Bond-level weapons. More usually letting mundane common threats like cars, cops or teachers pass. Sometimes just a moment to catch a breath. There are systems in place to ensure normal goons don't guard very important things. These systems would make for terribly boring action movies. InedibleHulk (talk) 10:29, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Jane Eyre and missionaries to India
In Jane Eyre, there was that guy -- St. John Eyre Rivers. I know India has a lot of Hindus, but there are the St. Thomas Christians in India. The St. Thomas Christians claim to be descended spiritually from Thomas the Apostle. So, did British people know about the St. Thomas Christians or the fact that Christianity had already spread to India by one of the original followers of Jesus? 50.4.236.254 (talk) 13:31, 27 April 2017 (UTC)


 * The Portuguese already knew about them in the 16th century, but had an ambiguous attitude towards them (as "Latin rite" Catholics generally did towards non-Catholic Christians from other traditions). AnonMoos (talk) 13:51, 27 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Christianity in India mentions some British missionaries to India, but they all seemed to be working in areas far removed from Kerala, which is where the St. Thomas Christians are mostly from. Which is not to say they didn't know of them.  -- Jayron 32 14:00, 27 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Saint Thomas Christians has some good information. -- Jayron 32 14:01, 27 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes, the British knew. For example, here is a published description from 1845, two years before the publication of Jane Eyre. The author refers to the Kerala Christians as the Syrian Church, and condescendingly (missionarysplaining?) describes them as "corrupt" and "having many errors in doctrine and superstitions in practice". Anyway, have a read; the text reveals the missionary attitudes, and by this account Anglican/Protestant missionaries had been aware of this group since at least 1806. 174.88.10.107 (talk) 14:29, 27 April 2017 (UTC)


 * There was a significant difference in the missionary approach to the St Thomas Christians: while the aim was to convert Hindus and Muslims to the Christian faith, they sought to reform the ancient Syriac church to bring it into agreement with (in particular) the Church of England. This resulted in the Mar Thoma Syrian Church, which separated in the 19th century. There are other groups which moved closer to the Roman Catholic Church, while some retained their ancient traditions. There are now eight different churches within the family - Saint Thomas Christian denominations Wymspen (talk) 15:51, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Biography of the Black Duke
I'm looking for an English language biography of Frederick William, Duke of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel, known as the "Black Duke", a remarkable character who was an ally of the British during the Napoleonic War and was killed in action on the day before Waterloo. I found one for his father, Charles William Ferdinand, Duke of Brunswick: An Historical Study, 1735-1806 and one about the man himself Der Schwarze Herzog: Friedrich Wilhelm von Braunschweig-Oels, but it's in German, my knowledge of which is derived solely from the pages of The Victor. Alansplodge (talk) 20:12, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
 * There's a good bit about him in Childe Harold's Pilgrimage, but hardly what you are looking for. DuncanHill (talk) 14:52, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Got it: "Within a window'd niche of that high hall / Sate Brunswick's fated chieftain; he did hear / That sound the first amidst the festival, / And caught its tone with Death's prophetic ear; / And when they smiled because he deem'd it near, / His heart more truly knew that peal too well / Which stretch'd his father on a bloody bier, / And roused the vengeance blood alone could quell: / He rush'd into the field, and, foremost fighting, fell". Alansplodge (talk) 20:29, 28 April 2017 (UTC)