Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2017 August 16

= August 16 =

Historical events and film/sound
What's the oldest historical event that was recorded on sound? I'm guessing it'd be something from the 1880s or 1890s that would have had people a.knowing it would be taking place and b.being able to have some sort of recording device around to lug to where it would be happening?

(apparently the Smithsonian has a bunch of about 400 records from the 1880s and 90s,but up till now no-one has a clue what's on them as they've been unplayable!?)

Also,what's the oldest historical event that has been recorded on moving film? Lemon martini (talk) 00:44, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Robert Browning was honored at a dinner in London in his last year, on April 7th, 1889 and recited a poem, which was recorded on an Edison cylinder. It was played back a year later at a memorial dinner. He was the first person to speak at his own memorial dinner. Perhaps the first dinner in 1889 might be considered a minor historical event. There are doubtless many fake recordings of historic events, such as battles or speeches, just as there are fake films of historic events. An actor might recite a speech which was then sold as a recording by the politician, in an era when every recording was an original and copies could  not yet be made. Edison (talk) 02:54, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
 * We need a good definition of "historical event," since the oldest movie of anything becomes automatically historical, such as the "Roundhay Garden Scene" claimed to be from 1888 or Edison'swell documented  Fred Ott sneezing on Jan 7 1894. The earliest Lumere films are from 1895. This is supposed to be Tsar Nicholas II visiting Queen Victoria at Balmoral in 1896. It so murky it could be anyone. As I said above, it was common in the early days to stage reenactments of events which were in the newspapers. Queen Victoria visited a garden party in 1898. There was a movie of the aftermath of the sinking ofthe USS Maine in 1898, of theBoer War (or at least troops parading) from 1899 and there were some films of European heads of state in the very early 20th century.  There was nothing to prevent a cinematographer from filming a prize fight, a parade, a fire, or a political speech, but only a tiny fraction of early films survive. They were made to be shown for a few months and then generally tossed aside. The filmstock was flammable and decayed over time. There was an actual movie of the aftermath of the San Francisco earthquake and fire of 1906. Edison (talk) 03:04, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Almost a hundred years to the day after Fred Ott sneezed, Fred Ottman (famous as Tugboat, infamous as The Shockmaster) became Uncle Fred, a gimmick which pop historians could've sneezed and missed, had the awesome power of magnetic tape not preserved it forever one fateful Saturday night. Or if not forever, at least considerably longer than nitrocellulose. More on topic, 1894 saw both a kinetoscope movie about a wrestling match and an apparent normal film about a wrestling dog. The latter starred Henry Welton, leading man of such documentary classics as Cock Fight, Cock Fight No. 2 and Professor Welton's Boxing Cats. Some are almost undoubtedly lost forever, but worth mentioning. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:17, 16 August 2017 (UTC)


 * As for the history of magnetic sound, Valdemar Poulsen captured Franz Joseph I of Austria saying something in 1900, and it's allegedly the oldest of its kind, but Wikipedia sources that fact from somewhere which doesn't claim it. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:36, 16 August 2017 (UTC)


 * For the oldest audio, going with the def of a "historic event" for being among the oldest audio, we have Edison's recital of Mary had a Little Lamb from 1877. StuRat (talk) 05:22, 16 August 2017 (UTC)


 * The recording referred to above by Inedible says: “die(?) Erfindung hat mich sehr interessiert und ich danke für die Vorführung derselben”, in translation “the(?) invention has been of great interest to me and I am thankful for the demonstration”. The invention seems to have been Poulsen´s telegraphone.  The German article says that one of the telegraphones was purchased by some institute of the then Austro-Hungarian Empire and that the recording was made in Vienna in 1901, on the 12th of October.  There is a recording here, published by the Technical Museum in Vienna, so I assume this to be genuine.  --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 06:14, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

To answer the superbly appropriately named Edison,I would define historical event here (using excellent Wikipedia terms!) as being 'an event that was notable not just because it had been recorded'-so a disaster,a sporting event,a presidential speech-something other than everyday human activities such as people sneezing or walking about.

Having done a bit more hunting,our article History_of_film gives us this: "Regular newsreels were exhibited from 1910 and soon became a popular way for finding out the news – the British Antarctic Expedition to the South Pole was filmed for the newsreels as were the suffragette demonstrations that were happening at the same time" which takes up back to 1911. Lemon martini (talk) 07:55, 16 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Edison took a tinfoil phonograph to the White House and recorded President Hayes April 18, 1878.The fragile tinfoil recording is not preserved to the best of my knowledge. Edison associates in Europe recorded on a wax cylinder the voice and piano playing of Brahms on 2 December 1889, but the recordings are of poor quality. There is a good recording  of the voices of Tchaikovsky and friends in 1890, .but nothing particularly historical seems to have been going on at either occasion, like the premier of a new work. There has long been speculation of whether the phonautograph, a predecessor of the phonograph could have been used to record earlier 19th century events or people, since it was around in the 1860's. There is in fact at present a Dick Tracy comicstrip featuring someone promoting a fake recording of Lincoln on phonautograph, and there was a novel featuring a phonautograph recording of the Gettysburg Address. As for films, Muybridge could conceivably made a 1 or 2 second movie record of some event by 1882, rather than the scientific/artistic subjects he photographed. Edison (talk) 13:56, 16 August 2017 (UTC)


 * See archaeoacoustics for the oldest recordings, assuming that you believe it works. 209.149.113.5 (talk) 16:38, 16 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Recorded sound technology is decades older than Edison, see Phonautograph. -- Jayron 32 16:56, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Pathe news seems to be good for this. this gives a clear if silent portrayal of Queen Victoria's funeral in 1901 whilst is William McKinley's inauguration in 1897. According to the Book of Firsts(Harrison,2003) Grover Cleveland is the first President to have been filmed-at this ceremony. Lemon martini (talk) 12:44, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Men with "1 WEEK" signs
I just watched a few minutes of a TV documentary show about the building of the Grand Coulee Dam. The narrator mentioned that during the Great Depression 12,000,000 American men became unemployed. And at this point there were a few seconds of old film showing a group of men walking together along a city street, at least 6 abreast. I couldn't tell if they were on the street itself or the sidewalk. But on a string around his neck, each man was wearing a printed sign presumably naming the job he was unemployed from&mdash;LABORER, PAINTER, FIREMAN, PORTER, etc.&mdash;most of the signs were in similar lettering. Still more striking, each man's hat had an identical sign on the front reading 1 WEEK, with a large digit 1 on a separate line above the word WEEK.

It clearly had the appearance of an organized demonstration, but not one I've ever seen photos of. The narrator, speaking in generalities about the Depression, did not say anything about it. Anyone recognize it from this description?

And I don't understand what the "1 WEEK" referred to: in that era clearly many men had been unemployed for much longer than a week, and I presume they would be willing to take jobs that would last less than a week. So what would those signs have meant? --69.159.60.147 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:25, 16 August 2017 (UTC)


 * That the men were looking for jobs which would pay them at intervals of one week? 79.79.138.16 (talk) 09:21, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I have a sneaking suspicion it wasn't "1 week" but was instead the logo for the Industrial Workers of the World, whose logo features an I on a line above W*W, which at a distance might look like 1 WEEK. The 1 on a separate line is what made me think of that logo.  -- Jayron 32 11:02, 16 August 2017 (UTC)


 * If it's anything like this illustration by Achille Beltrame, then the signs clearly say "1 WEEK" (but I wasn't able to find any film or photo footage quickly). ---Sluzzelin talk  12:46, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Meh, I think the whole Wobblies thing is chop suey- it was "hot Baths: 25c", ""25$, 26 weeks & Union Wages" etc. &mdash; fortuna  velut luna  12:59, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, Sluzzelin, it appears it wasn't the Wobblies. I was working from the description of the sign, and that was the closest thing I could think of.  Now that you've found the original picture, it looks like you're more right.  Good find!  -- Jayron 32 13:48, 16 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Found the film footage: You can see them here (seven seconds into the first Modern Marvels episode (1993), on the Grand Coulee Dam). ---Sluzzelin talk  13:54, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Found another one too: . Still no meaning for the 1 week bit, tho.  -- Jayron 32 14:02, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I think I've worked it out, following the film footage Sluzzelin posted. If you look closely, there's a character between the '1' and the 'week'. I think that's an 'A'. And if you look even more closely, there's a character above and to the left of the '1'. I think that's a dollar sign. In other words, the men are saying that they are willing to work for $1 a week. And if that doesn't earn me a barnstar, nothing will. --Viennese Waltz 14:17, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
 * They where wearing signs which state their professions and which offered to work for a dollar a week. This obviously was a popular thing to do in New York in 1930. Maybe someone organized this to sell lots of these signs. --Kharon (talk) 14:38, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the picture which confirms that I had the right answer, but you might have acknowledged that I got it before you. --Viennese Waltz 14:44, 16 August 2017 (UTC)


 * (after edit conflict) Excellent, Viennese Waltz! Before anyone complains about OR, see also this Universal Newsreel titled "Jobless seek work for board, bed and salary of $1 a week" (my emphasis, and I never would have found this without your scrutiny). ---Sluzzelin talk  14:46, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks to Sluzzelin for finding an image and Viennese for figuring out the signs. Kharon's link didn't work for me but by doing a similar seach I got to this book page, from Modern History in Pictures: A Visual Guide to the Events that Shaped Our World (DK/Smithsonian, ISBN 978-0-7566-9818-8), which specifically gives the date of the match march as November 8, 1930, and confirms that the signs asked for $1 a week. --69.159.60.147 (talk) 20:26, 16 August 2017 (UTC), typo fixed later.

You can see Jayron's photo at, captioned "A demonstration by unemployed workers (their various trades are on display) prepared to labor for a dollar a week during the Great Depression, 1930s." 92.8.219.206 (talk) 15:40, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Resource for Mattress Performance (Carry That Weight)
I'd like to get a copy of this full article: https://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article167408959/Ich-war-ein-einfaches-Opfer.html. It would be useful for the Mattress Performance (Carry That Weight) article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dunobu (talk • contribs) 10:22, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Try WP:REX. That part of Wikipedia specializes in getting full copies of articles.  -- Jayron 32 10:28, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Went there.Dunobu (talk) 11:11, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

White men's fascination with the sex life of African Americans
Hi, I was reading Black Like Me for a college project, and I have watched the film too. As it is based on real life events, why were White southerners in the United States so fascinated with the sex lives of African Americans? In the book/film they were particularly curious if they "ever had it from a white woman". Why is this? Was this a southern phenomenon? --Questinouios (talk) 19:26, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
 * When it came out, pretty much anyone old enough to know what sex is remembered segregation and Jim Crow. As difficult as legal desegregation was, forcing social desegregation was even harder and so at the time most white people, by and large, did not associate with black people.  That "Black Like Me" sold well outside the South leads me to believe that it wasn't just white southerners at the time who didn't quite grasp that black men and white women could have sex just as two white people, or two black people, or a black woman and a white man could.  Plus, stereotypes about black men being better in bed (or at least better hung) and irrational fears over "miscegenation" would have created a mystique around interracial couples.  Ian.thomson (talk) 19:45, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Miscegenation and all the stuff it links to will give plenty of reading material. Note that at the time the book was written, it was still illegal for blacks and whites to marry in numerous U.S. states. Gotta make sure the races don't mix, as God intended! And then because of that there's a whole forbidden fruit aspect, and all kinds of associated psychosocial human weirdness. Racial fetishism has been a thing for a long time, and even today in the U.S., when there are no legal restrictions on interracial relationships, there's still a persistent air of social taboo around the subject. Obviously this varies by time and place. An interracial couple in New York City or Los Angeles are unlikely to get a second glance, but in a lot of rural areas they may draw attention, and there are still people who won't tolerate their children having an interracial relationship. (There are plenty of anecdotes, as a Web search will attest.) --47.138.161.183 (talk) 00:58, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
 * May want to read about Sexual revolution to see the difficulty of sexual relationships befor the "revolution". White men shure didnt have much fun with women of the Woman's Christian Temperance Union, who put allot of effort to make prostitution, gambling and alcohol illegal. Also i would disagree with the IP-answer regarding the marriage. It was less a case to prevent racial mixing but to exclude black people from the legal benefits and status of a marriage or more precise the juristic and social complications a mixed couple would imply due to the racial segregation and discrimination. --Kharon (talk) 22:31, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
 * , I suspect that the Woman's Christian Temperance Union would disagree with your point of view. They'd surely claim that they can have a lot of fun with white men without having to pay money for it. ;-) (Remember they're still active and so WP:BLP applies). Matt's talk 00:42, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
 * You might want to take another look at BLP, in particular section BLPGROUP. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 06:43, 18 August 2017 (UTC).
 * M.R.Forrester, they where very, very close to the Ku Klux Klan. I have high doubts about the fun part. --Kharon (talk) 12:49, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
 * , all I knew before today was what's in our article, which says nothing about members having defective sexual relationships or about KKK links. I don't what your sources are, but please go ahead and add the info to the article, because it sounds important. I tried to find out more, and found several blog and pressure group pages making the KKK claim, all of which traced back to the same origin, the pro-alcohol campaigner David J. Hanson. Looking back through his article's history, it seems to be a minefield of claims and counter-claims about Prof. Hanson's alleged funding by the alcohol industry. The most reliable source I could find was K.M.Blee's Women of the Klan, which shows how several of the leaders of the KKK's female auxiliaries came from the WCTU. But she also says (p.104): "The WCTU did not share the vicious, hate-mongering attitudes of the late Klan movement. Indeed, the WCTU had black members and a commitment to work with immigrants and ethnic minorities." Obviously I haven't had time to read the whole of that book, but it's highly commended for its scholarship in the LA Times review by Barbara Ehrenreich. She (following Blee) says there were links because both were attractive to American feminists as vehicles for (some) women's empowerment, though Ehrenreich insists that "the Women's KKK was not just a more militant version of the Women's Christian Temperance Union", because it took an intellectual leap to join the racists. It seems this situation had plenty of grey, alongside definite areas of black and white (in the form of the vile KKK's white sheets). She says, "I used to have a comforting image of the Ku Klux Klan as an assemblage of social misfits and genetically inbred white trash. No more." Perhaps the same should apply to our image of the WCTU? Matt's talk 00:16, 20 August 2017 (UTC)