Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2017 August 27

= August 27 =

Did the Muslim Arabs have plumbing
Did Medieval Muslim Arabs use plumbing? Uncle dan is home (talk) 03:27, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Here is the whole history of plumbing. Omidinist (talk) 03:46, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
 * 11th century Moorish fountains from Granada, Spain. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 08:58, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Pattern drafting : "Downton Abbey" style maid's apron.
Hi,

In respect of a costume, I am trying to find a pattern for a "parlour-maid"'s apron broadly simmilar to those worn by the relevant characters in Downton Abbey. The closest I found so far was a 'work-apron' from around 1910.

Does anyone on this forum know of a contemporaneous work from the late 1890's-early 1920's which would give advice on how to draft a pattern for these? (Most of my online searches for 'maid-apron' patterns tend to produce considerably more recent designs. ( Whilst some would be appropriate for a more recent farce, they aren't suited to an older historical period or more formal setting being potrayed.)

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:54, 27 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I can't help you with the direct question, but another source for you to consider would be any relevant living history museums. For example, a few blocks from my house there is one called Doon Heritage Village, where historical re-enactors dress in period-appropriate costume (a step or two above people who merely LARP in costumes of varying degrees of authenticity). In the Doon case, the time period is correct, but they wouldn't have a need for the kind of outfit you're after and the geography is obviously wrong, but perhaps there's something similar to be found? What you're after is something dealing with late-Victorian era or the Edwardian era. Those search terms might net you professional re-enactors who've been faced with the exact problem you're facing. Or you could add them to your search terms (edwardian parlour maid pattern) to narrow the field a bit. Matt Deres (talk) 13:18, 27 August 2017 (UTC)


 * You might wish to turn to a fashion museum; the shop manager might be able to recommend a book, if the curators cannot answer your question with a quick email. The first I would turn to are the Fashion Museum, Bath and the specialist collection within the Victoria and Albert Museum. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 20:44, 28 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Wasn't there a Wikipedian in residence at the V&A? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:53, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Confectioners manuals referenced in BBC program "The Sweet Makers".
Does anyone have a list of the confectioners mannuals the recent BBC Documentary series "The Sweet Makers" referenced? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:46, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
 * One of them seems to be the 1890 edition of Edward Skuse's Handbook Google Books. &#40;&#40;&#40;The Quixotic Potato&#41;&#41;&#41; (talk)  13:20, 27 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Also at - https://archive.org/details/b28048465, will be putting a copy on Commons once I can find the other manuals listed in the earlier programs.

Also thanks for pointing me in the direction of the site which provides subtitles/transcripts :) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 14:39, 27 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Next problem finding a lifetime so I can confrim PD-old :( ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:28, 27 August 2017 (UTC)


 * The Georgian era manual is Frederick Nutt's Complete Confectioner - https://archive.org/details/b21526205

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:33, 27 August 2017 (UTC)


 * I've not found the Tudor era works online yet. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:33, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Maybe this is of interest. &#40;&#40;&#40;The Quixotic Potato&#41;&#41;&#41; (talk) 17:19, 27 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks again.. Nutt's work is clearly PD-old (based on the publication date), and I am reasonably confident Skuse is as well, but I've not been able to conclusively prove it. If you know of a lifetime for Skuse, or a hint on where it might be found it would be useful (The hope is to upload the relevant volumes on Commons, with view to getting them Transcribed at Wikisource. :) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:53, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Who was Saint Therotus?
Can anybody identify the patron saint of a "chapel dedicated to St Therotus, or Theriot" at Fordell Castle in Scotland? The only meaningful Google results refer directly to that chapel, or the nearby St Theriot's Well, without shedding any light on who he or she was. Alansplodge (talk) 11:57, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
 * There's no St. Therotus, St. Theretus, or St. Theriot on the Roman Calendar of Saints, and the chapel was dedicated in 1511, which suggests he was someone locally venerated as a saint in Scotland. He would have been the subject of a local cult, either with or without the authorization of the bishop. - Nunh-huh 12:28, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Uh uh, he has been described in the literature as "splendidly apocryphal." &mdash; fortuna  velut luna  13:29, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
 * The guy is strictly theriot-ical? Clarityfiend (talk) 18:25, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Being the subject of a local cult is no guarantee of actual existence! Vide St. Wilgefortis, St. Guinefort. - Nunh-huh 22:06, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
 * The two possibilities are actually non-exclusive. I mean, Santa Claus is apocryphal, yet Saint Nicholas was not.  Who knows what game of telephone might have played out here? Wnt (talk) 19:27, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Canmore says this: 'Fordell Chapel, restored some years ago, is a mortuary chapel built in 1650. It is said to occupy the site of the old chapel of St Theriot, Therotus or Theoretus. Uoret, an 8th century cleric, may be represented by St Terott or Tirot, Teorot, whose chapel was in Fordel, 1570, 1611 (W J Watson 1926). Noted in 1510 (Reg Magni Sig Reg Scot).'


 * Thank you all, I bow to your superior Google-fu. I have created a new sub-section at Fordell Castle. Alansplodge (talk) 16:07, 27 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Far from being mythical, this saint was king of the Picts, as this comment explained:

That's right. Where a saint's name begins with a vowel the "t" of "Saint" can transfer to become part of the name. The name James in Latin is Iacobus. In Portuguese it becomes Santo Iago or Sant'Iago which becomes Santiago and finally São Tiago when Tiago is taken to be the actual name. Nearer home, there used to be an annual fair at Ely dedicated to St Audrey at which cheap "tawdry" goods could be purchased. Uoret is a Scottish name - WHAAOE Drosten Stone. 81.151.100.122 (talk) 17:02, 27 August 2017 (UTC)


 * That leads us back to Uurad, or is it Ferad, or maybe Feradach....! But few kings are saints.  It would be possible there's a saint named after the king.  But what's interesting about the possibility is that the article says he died in 842, and Saint says the Pope named the first saint officially in 993.  The article says before that, saints were proclaimed in a "local and spontaneous" way.  So we're pretty much back to the first response above at this point, but a little wiser in realizing that the idea of formally recognizing and listing all saints is somewhat recent in Christianity. Wnt (talk) 14:41, 29 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Canmore says the present chapel is built on the site of an earlier one, so the history could go back a long way.  The area appears to be the centre of the Pictish kingdom and for comparison there has been a church at the top of Ludgate Hill in London dedicated to St Paul since the seventh century.   The timelines of king and saint agree (seventh century) and one wonders why, if he had been "an obscure cleric", he would have been canonised.   On the other hand, some kings do make it to sainthood - from England we have Edmund and Edward the Confessor.   So we would expect at least one of the many Scottish kings to have been so honoured. 92.8.219.206 (talk) 15:48, 29 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Just to correct one statement, Fordell Castle was, instead of at the centre of Pictavia it was probably at its southern limit. It is well enough accepted that the real centre of Pictish power lay in the Kingdom of Fortrui with its centre somewhere on the southern coast of the Moray Firth. Also, local "obscure clerics" did make it to sainthood, see St Gervadius. -Bill Reid | (talk) 14:21, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Plenty of obscure clerics in this List of Cornish saints and even more in the List of Welsh saints (and they haven't included the really obscure ones!). Alansplodge (talk) 20:51, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
 * See also St Kilda, Scotland; the existence of a Scottish place named "Saint X" does not guarantee the existence (whether in reality or in legend) of a saint named X. Nyttend (talk) 22:20, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

In several regions during the middle ages, a prominent early local Christian religious leader or church founder could have a church or chapel named after him, and then would be considered a saint at least for the purposes of church naming, even though he is unknown to Rome, and certainly was never officially declared a saint by any pope. The "Saint Marinus" after whom San Marino is named was another such figure... AnonMoos (talk) 23:06, 31 August 2017 (UTC)


 * For example Vol.3 pp.398–433 of P. W. Joyce's Irish Names of places has placenames beginning Kil-, many from Irish cill X meaning "church of St. X" where X is some medieval Irish saint. About 3000 cill places are in the Placenames Database of Ireland. jnestorius(talk) 23:00, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

How did the process of reincarnation according to some of the early Christians that believed in it?
Was it similar to Hindu and Buddhist views of reincarnation, or was it different? Uncle dan is home (talk) 21:49, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Can you cite any references for this belief of some early Christians? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:13, 27 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Early Christians, by and large, did not believe in reincarnation. Some Gnostic groups did believe in reincarnation, though it had its finer differences from the Hindu and Buddhist views (and the Hindus and Buddhists disagree on aspects of it, but focusing on the Gnostics...).
 * In Gnosticism, the soul was a fragment of an extension (or emanation) of God that was cut off from God and trapped in the material world (which was "less real" than the spiritual realm of the Aeons). When a body dies, the soul would ascend through lower "heavens" (typically seven in number, identified with the seven Classical planets as astrology understood them), being judged by one of the Archons (the servants of a blind and retarded angel named Samael, who created the material world and thought that he was God).  Most souls would be caught by one of the archons, have their memory white-washed (potentially recoverable), and be thrown back to Earth to be born again.  Depending on the school of Gnosticism, an enlightened soul might theoretically be able to evade the judgement of each Archon and ascend to heaven, though others said that the only way to get past the Archons was if one knew the magic spells necessary to hold them back.  Reincarnation was a bad thing in Gnosticism, reunion with God was the ultimate goal.
 * In Hinduism, reincarnation isn't exactly regarded as evil. Not the best option (union with God is preferable) but still natural.  In Buddhism, reincarnating is (at best) annoying, while not reincarnating is (at worst) considered a good idea (not because of union with God, but because not-existing is somewhat preferable to existing).  Ian.thomson (talk) 00:59, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
 * As usually is understood, reincarnation is different from resurrection. There is no tradition of reincarnation in ANY of the Abrahamic religions as far as I know.  There are, however, several examples from the scriptures of those religions for resurrection.  Perhaps the OP got his/her terms confused?  -- Jayron 32 10:50, 28 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Though not a mainstream part of current belief in either Christianity or Islam, both religions had early periods where a prominent minority argued for reincarnation (earthly return of souls to new bodies) as a possible outcome after death. In addition, a belief in a form reincarnation called Gilgul is still prevalent among some practitioners of Kabbalistic Judaism today.  Dragons flight (talk) 11:51, 28 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Origen of Alexandra was a well-known 3rd century Christian scholar. Among other things, he is credited with promoting a Christian theory of reincarnation:
 * "The soul has neither beginning nor end [They] come into this world strengthened by the victories or weakened by the defeats of their previous lives." (de Principiis)
 * In his view, each soul had existed from the beginning of time and was capable of passing through multiple Earthly lives. His views had a substantial number of adherents, during a time when Christianity was still finding its way, but his view probably never really qualified as mainstream.  During the 6th century, his teachings were formally denounced as incorrect at the Second Council of Constantinople.  Like the Hindus and others, he also took the view that the qualities of your next life would be influenced by the character of your actions in the current one:
 * "Is it not rational that souls should be introduced into bodies, in accordance with their merits and previous deeds, and that those who have used their bodies in doing the utmost possible good should have a right to bodies endowed with qualities superior to the bodies of others?" (Contra Celsus)
 * In formulating his theories, the Biblical references to resurrection might be seen as posing a challenge. He overcame this by reinterpreting the Biblical references to resurrection as describing the eventual return of the soul to its true heavenly body, while the Earthly body was immaterial.  Dragons flight (talk) 11:34, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

In the classical antiquity culture sphere, reincarnation is often termed "transmigration of souls" or "metempsychosis". In early Christianity, belief in reincarnation was much less mainstream than apocalyptic resurrection (see Book of Revelation, chapter 20)... AnonMoos (talk) 16:53, 28 August 2017 (UTC)


 * This is much more question than answer... my understanding is that Hinduism includes a "tat tvam asi" principle that all atman is the same. This would seem to be more what I would call "simulcarnation" - everyone is the same soul, but it's no particular order; memories don't necessarily get transferred by any paranormal means.  In this variant, "karma" would simply be that the misdeed done by the person is felt by what is really the same person.  But I do know that the reincarnation, for whatever reason, also exists, and I don't know much at all where Hinduism is concerned.


 * In the case of Christianity, there is the story of the rich man and Lazarus. This is widely interpreted to be a vision of Hell, but those disbelieving in Hell as a place of endless torture might be prone to other interpretations, such as one comparable to the Hindu idea.  Some people also make very much of the "many mansions" quote but I don't know if that idea has an established name.  Another potentially but dubiously related idea is that Kemetism famously has a notion of there being seven different kinds of soul, and if one would suppose the Biblical Exodus has a basis in fact, then "soul" could be an ambiguous concept.  Abraham wanted a continuity of the flesh that is one kind; Jesus might at times have been referring to either the ka or the ba.  Or not - like I said, more question than answer. Wnt (talk) 00:52, 29 August 2017 (UTC)


 * My sources are in storage, but it is an interesting aside that various Siberian tribes believed in several different types of soul, from three to seven, including the breath, the shadow, a doppleganger and a soul that became a bird (the sights of which foretold death) and a small "familiar" that lived in your clothing. See p. 445, An Encyclopedia of Shamanism Volume 2 (Hardcover) By Christina Pratt  -- 17:26, 29 August 2017 Medeis

Subject and author with similar names
A Man Called Intrepid was about a man called William Stephenson. It was written by a man called William Stevenson. They were not related.

Does anyone know of other cases where the subject and the writer had very similar - or even identical - names, but were not related? --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:48, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Presumably you're talking strictly non-fiction? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:14, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think I am, upon reflection. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  11:29, 28 August 2017 (UTC)


 * The Message was written by Mohammad Ali Maher and produced by Mohammed Sanousi. The Greatest was written by Muhammad Ali (very related) and Herbert Muhammad (not related). InedibleHulk (talk) 23:20, 27 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Here's Starr on Starr. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:25, 27 August 2017 (UTC)


 * And Jens on Hans. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:28, 27 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Anand and Anand. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:33, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
 * The author seems to be Grant Pooke, not anyone Anand. The others seem to have the same surname, or in one case the same given names, but not both.  Thanks for your research. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:01, 28 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Wes Moore of Baltimore on Wes Moore of Baltimore (no relation). --Antiquary (talk) 08:31, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
 * That's a definite match. Thanks.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:01, 28 August 2017 (UTC)


 * I found a 1931 article on motion picture sound recording advances entitled "Noiseless recording." The paper is credited to "H.C. Silent". How about a triple play?A review of "The cerebral basis of consciousness" in the journal Brain 1958: 81; 426–455, by Dr. Russell Brain. A near-miss:  Karen Horney wrote about sexuality. Edison (talk) 16:38, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Edison, see Russell Brain, 1st Baron Brain if you're curious. Nyttend (talk) 22:46, 31 August 2017 (UTC)


 * OK, so all in all, a very uncommon occurrence. Thanks all.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:40, 31 August 2017 (UTC)