Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2017 August 28

= August 28 =

Christian missionaries in Vietnam in the 19th century
I was just reading Vietnamese alphabet's history section. How come the Christian missionaries were successful at eliminating the Vietnamese's previous Classical Chinese script? Meanwhile, China, Korea, and Japan still use Chinese script in some way. What happened? 50.4.236.254 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:45, 28 August 2017 (UTC)


 * China had the most reason to hold on their own script, since it was theirs. Korea and Japan already had simpler scripts to supplement Chinese.  Also, Vietnam was a French colony during that time, while the other nations were (more-or-less) independent.  See History_of_writing_in_Vietnam.  Ian.thomson (talk) 01:49, 28 August 2017 (UTC)


 * 50.4.236.254 -- First off, Chinese characters have been completely eliminated in the writing of the Korean language in North Korea, while in South Korea they currently have more of a decorative or ornamental role than a truly functional one. Second, the Chinese-influenced way of writing the Vietnamese language, the Chữ Nôm, often used highly-modified versions of Chinese characters (not found in China itself), and was not really suitable for teaching mass literacy.  I'm not sure that the spread of the Latin alphabet was in fact mainly due to efforts by missionaries to "eliminate" other writing systems (as opposed to recognition by pragmatic Vietnamese of the limitations of Chữ Nôm)... AnonMoos (talk) 16:40, 28 August 2017 (UTC)


 * The article contains the explanation I expected, though it is in light font with a "citation needed" after it: "Because the period of education necessary to gain initial literacy is considerably less for the largely phonetic Latin-based script compared to the several years necessary to master the full range of Chinese characters, the adoption of the Vietnamese alphabet also facilitated widespread literacy among Vietnamese speakers—whereas a majority of Vietnamese in Vietnam could not read or write prior to the 20th century, the population is now almost universally literate."  I think a primordial goal of missionaries is always to get the masses reading the Bible, which is to say, to make it as easy for them to sound out the words in the language they know as possible.  Also I'd guess that bringing literacy to the poorest, and with it presumably some relief in education and economic circumstance, is also likely to be a high priority.  This isn't really an answer unless someone finds real confirmation, but I just thought I should put the idea out there. Wnt (talk) 01:00, 29 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Wnt -- the Chữ Nôm writing system was identified with a small traditional elite. I don't know most of the historical details in this case, but based on analogy with other historical examples, it seems very plausible to me that the rise of Latin script and decline of Chữ Nôm was partly due to the declining influence of that traditional elite, as well as the realization (probably by missionaries, radical nationalists, and others) that Chữ Nôm was not an appropriate vehicle to bring the Vietnamese language into the 20th century.  See various subsections in the Language planning article... AnonMoos (talk) 06:33, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Question about OSHA inspectors (not law related)
When the United States Occupational Safety and Health Administration shows up at a non-industrial workplace like a restaurant or small store, do they wear hard hats and reflective vests like they do in factories and construction sites? Do they drive marked vehicles? 172.58.12.200 (talk) 02:20, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Of possible relevance but not American, sorry. Posting it in case you find it useful anyways. Yes, the officials with the briefcases can wield more powers than the officials who carry guns. Eliyohub (talk) 04:11, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
 * A quick google search turned up some images minus the reflective vests, but none minus the hard hats. Eliyohub (talk) 04:34, 28 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Again not US, but there's an urban legend that whilst some scrap metal dealer in the UK had no fear at being visted by the cops, he literally broke down when a fire inspector arrived. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 14:59, 28 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Here is an image of an inspector on a food truck. I cannot read the logo on his shirt, nor his badge, so I don't know if he works for OSHA or another agency.  -- Jayron 32 15:15, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Cost of the British succession
No doubt, given her majesty's age, plans have been drawn up for her death or resignation (or the "interim" appointment of a Regent, should she become incapacitated). Things like the Coronation ceremony. The Royal funeral. Also, will the thousands (millions?) of mentions of "her majesty" need to be changed to "his majesty"? Official correspondence, government departments, the anthem, etc, etc? (Ditto for the other Commonwealth realms?)

My "minor" question is, what actions (with financial ramifications) will the succession entail on the part of the Government, besides the obvious funeral and coronation?

My "major" question is, how much is it budgeted to cost, in British pounds? Either according to official budget estimates, or estimates from experts? Will the whole enterprise be a significant drain on the British budget? It's been 65 years since the last time the monarchy has changed hands, so there's no recent precedent. I'm not asking for speculation, as this issue has no doubt been subject to official and unofficial study? Eliyohub (talk) 04:08, 28 August 2017 (UTC)


 * This article discusses some of the actions that would occur on her passing, though not the specific cost.  One interesting statement made there is that the national holiday period declared for mourning and succession may ultimately cost UK businesses and workers a few billion pounds in lost productivity, though that is not a government expense.  Dragons flight (talk) 07:09, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
 * There would also be a significant cost borne across the other Commonwealth Realms. Hack (talk) 07:35, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Fortunately, many references to "his/her majesty" occur in abbreviated contexts such as HMS, HMSO, and OHMS, where the abbreviation is the same either way. However, all lawyers who are QCs would have to change their abbreviated honorific to KC.  An interesting case is the Canadian province of Ontario, where it was decided in 1930 that the principal category of provincial highways should be called "King's Highways".  It might have been considered necessary to change the term to "Queen's Highways" in 1952, but this was not done; I don't know whether or not that decision was because someone flinched at the cost of changing all the signs. So it's now been 65 years that we've had King's Highways but no king.  (The government started phasing the term out of actual use some years ago, but it remains the highways' official categorization.) --69.159.60.147 (talk) 19:50, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
 * The words of existing laws don't need to be changed, as the Interpretations Acts of each realm provides that "Queen" is read as "King" during the reign of a male monarch and vice versa.
 * Re QCs, are you sure that's right? There are various KCs who lived into the reign of the current queen, and they are still normally referred to KCs today. Of course, not having been alive during the 50s-60s, I don't know whether most people changed the signs on their doors at the time. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:48, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
 * For example, in Interpretation Act 1978, section 6. -- Jayron 32 15:13, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Although the link says new coins will be minted immediately that's not the case.  Edward VII's coins were not minted till nearly a year after his mother's death.   The new coinage begins on 1 January of the next year.   There would be no point in preparing dies for coins of Charles' reign now because the portrait might not be accurate when it was needed.   The Queen's Bench division of the High Court will change to the King's Bench Division, the Queen's Remembrancer will become the King's Remembrancer etc., but no doubt existing stationery stocks will be used up before documentation is reprinted. 86.176.124.180 (talk) 22:50, 28 August 2017 (UTC)


 * In passing, I note with a chuckle that the Romance languages, for example, do not distinguish his from her; this difference tripped up the authors of English As She Is Spoke. Which languages do?  Besides English, Russian (jevo:jejo) and Esperanto (lia:ŝia) come to mind. —Tamfang (talk) 08:03, 29 August 2017 (UTC)


 * I have heard native African and Persian speakers say "he", "him" and "his" when speaking English when they mean "she" and "her".  Now I know why.   Going back to Old English, "he" referred to both genders, which was why "she" was drafted in to make the distinction.
 * Many languages – perhaps most, for all I know – use the same word for she and he, but that's not what I was getting at. Romance languages do have separate words for he and she, but the possessive pronouns take their form from the gender of the thing possessed, rather than from that of the possessor as in the other languages I mentioned. —Tamfang (talk) 17:08, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Rose Heilbron was definitely a Queen's Counsel . 92.8.219.206 (talk) 16:00, 29 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Her subjects should be grateful to Her Majesty for her continued reign, which is the longest in the history of the Monarchy. Whatever the cost, the succession will have been amortized over at least 63 years. (Of course, it would be more cost-effective in the long run if she were succeeded by a great-grandchild.) -Arch dude (talk) 19:26, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
 * The Royal Tax Accountants will be all over this one, figuring out the tax implications for the royal household? Eliyohub (talk) 04:41, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
 * On the subject of the cost of a day off for the next coronation, note that ordinarily the UK has only 8 public holidays per annum, compared to an EU average of 12.2 (France has 12 and Cyprus manages an astonishing 17). See Who gets the most public holidays in the EU. So I think we deserve a few extra days off now and again; the last "extras" were for William and Kate's wedding in 2011 and the Diamond Jubilee in 2012. Alansplodge (talk) 16:48, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
 * The tax man will have to get some new envelopes, he won't be able to use these. Alansplodge (talk) 16:59, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

How much do poets earn?
How much can poets earn writing poetry? Who are the best paid poets? How much best selling poets earn? --Hofhof (talk) 17:45, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
 * They get a dime / For ev'ry rhyme. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:43, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
 * According to this it is pretty much all over the map. The world's highest paid poet is Bernie Taupin, who made $75,000,000 (about) in 2017, most of that as songwriter's royalties for writing the lyrics to Elton John songs.  According to this, employees in the category of "poet, lyricist and creative writer) make a pretty normal "middle class" salary in the U.S., ranging from $48,000-$72,000 on average, depending on local market conditions.  That, of course, depends on getting hired as such.  Freelance poetry is more volatile, but a savvy and skillful poet can make a living: .  -- Jayron 32 18:08, 28 August 2017 (UTC)


 * "Would you like fries with that?" Ian.thomson (talk) 17:47, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
 * To elaborate: the majority of poets do not get paid. The ones that get paid at all would be among the best paid and selling.  It's almost like asking "how much do lottery players earn?"
 * "The chances of making money as a poet are pretty slim," "incredibly difficult." Because "money isn’t the reason you’re writing".
 * "poets generally don't make any money," "the most successful poets these days are poetry professors, so they make their money teaching"
 * Very few markets remain for poetry-for-money in 2017.
 * I say this from experience: poetry is better used to seduce people who like poetry than to make money. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:12, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Mankind misses money-making, well-made
 * poets plenty, proud, professional, paid
 * be it verse alliterate, limerick,
 * or even pentameter iambic,
 * and don't even bother with blank verse.
 * Ian.thomson (talk) 18:33, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Of course there's the famously rich Ewan McTeagle. μηδείς (talk) 18:31, 28 August 2017 (UTC)


 * United States Poet Laureate currently earns a whopping $35k per annum. (What rhymes with: "Don't quit your day job"?) — 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:E4D8:84DC:15BC:BD9C (talk) 20:59, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
 * But the Poet Laureate of the United Kingdom earns "£5,750 and a barrel of sherry". Alansplodge (talk) 17:04, 31 August 2017 (UTC)


 * For a disenchanted poet, perhaps "Time for grenade lob" ? StuRat (talk) 21:38, 28 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Do rappers count? People who write music lyrics? &#40;&#40;&#40;The Quixotic Potato&#41;&#41;&#41; (talk) 21:40, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
 * The source I cited above names a lyricist as the worlds highest paid poet. Not hip-hop or rap, but a different genre, but a lyricist nonetheless.  -- Jayron 32 11:45, 29 August 2017 (UTC)


 * They can count to ten -- twenty if they take their shoes off. 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:E4D8:84DC:15BC:BD9C (talk) 23:22, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Not sure if trolling or illinformed, but there are quite a few intelligent rappers. You won't find em on tv, and they don't make huge amounts of money, but they exist. &#40;&#40;&#40;The Quixotic Potato&#41;&#41;&#41; (talk)  23:28, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Not trolling, nor illinformed [sic]; It's a Joke, Son! — 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:E4D8:84DC:15BC:BD9C (talk) 00:02, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
 * You didn't get the reference. People make typos [sic]. Dad jokes are unfunny. I am aware of the fact that you were trying to make a joke, but it didn't have the desired effect. That joke is older than I am and not very original. You can find some examples of the types of jokes I enjoy on my userpage. &#40;&#40;&#40;The Quixotic Potato&#41;&#41;&#41; (talk)  00:17, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
 * 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:E4D8:84DC:15BC:BD9C—doesn't your comment that rappers "can count to ten—twenty if they take their shoes off", imply that they are stupid? Bus stop (talk) 00:23, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Of course. That was common precept for jokes in the pre-humorless world.  Evidently, today that is considered a micro-aggression, trigger or hate-speech in today's safe-space world. 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:E4D8:84DC:15BC:BD9C (talk) 04:53, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
 * See straw man argument. I explained that the joke is old, unoriginal and unfunny. I did not write about micro-aggressions, triggers, hate-speech and safe-spaces. Read my userpage. Then read Law of holes. &#40;&#40;&#40;The Quixotic Potato&#41;&#41;&#41; (talk) 05:17, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
 * See pedantry. Then read Much Ado About Nothing. 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:E4D8:84DC:15BC:BD9C (talk) 06:03, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Stop digging kiddo. Silence is the perfectest herault of joy. &#40;&#40;&#40;The Quixotic Potato&#41;&#41;&#41; (talk) 06:19, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

My favourite one - liner:
 * Football fan (to defender) - Keep your legs together!
 * Player - Pity your mother didn't do that! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.8.219.206 (talk) 18:28, 29 August 2017 (UTC)


 * That's not a one-liner but a riposte. Apropos comments above derided others' ability to count, perhaps related to the demise of metric poetry? -- Deborahjay (talk) 06:18, 30 August 2017 (UTC)


 * This is the US, and we don't do anything metric. :-) (As for an actual one liner, that would be something like "Take my wife...please !") StuRat (talk) 16:38, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

James Tiptree and W.T. Tyler
The novelists James Tiptree, Jr and W. T. Tyler both worked at the CIA and both, in my estimation, were liberals. I wonder if they ever knew each other or maybe even were friends.144.35.114.188 (talk) 20:04, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
 * According to this Tyler worked for the United States Foreign Service and the United States State Department and not the CIA.  So your presumption is incorrect.  The two were also never in the U.S. government at the same time, according to this Tyler started working for the government in 1960, whereas Tiptree had left the U.S. government by 1955.  So, no, they would have never met in the government employ.  They worked in different agencies at different times.  They may have known each other for different reasons, but not as you asked about. -- Jayron 32 20:18, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Flint residents using lake water
Is a Flint resident allowed to drive over to Lake St. Clair or Lake Erie or Huron and get a bucket of water from there to use for drinking water? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 20:31, 28 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Allowed, sure. That doesn't mean it's a good idea.  It's a long drive, and many of them lack cars.  Even for those with cars, the expense of the drive is likely more than buying bottled water.  Or, better yet, go to the nearby areas served by the Detroit Water supply the whole time, which don't have damaged pipes, and fill up all their containers there.  And note that lake water would still need to be boiled and filtered, so it's not as good, in any case.  See Flint water crisis.   StuRat (talk) 21:34, 28 August 2017 (UTC)


 * (EC) The Great Lakes–Saint Lawrence River Basin Sustainable Water Resources Agreement outlines who can and can't draw water from the great lakes. But that applies to municipalities not people, so sure, anyone in Canada or the US could take a bucket of water from the great lakes without being arrested. Of 19 (talk) 21:36, 28 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Also note that bottled water is fine for drinking, but buying enough to bathe, cook, wash dishes, etc., quickly becomes impossible. StuRat (talk) 21:43, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

But you'd think that people would get together with a uhaul and just go fill up barrels and bring them back. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 00:31, 29 August 2017 (UTC)


 * The lake water just isn't better than what they can get nearby. For those without damaged lead pipes, the crisis is over, and they can use the Detroit water they are now reconnected to.  For those with damaged lead pipes, they can continue to drink and cook with bottled water, and use the Detroit water + lead to do laundry, wash dishes, etc.  One concern though is that Flint still wants to disconnect from Detroit water.  Hopefully they will do so in a competent manner this time. StuRat (talk) 03:41, 29 August 2017 (UTC)


 * That makes sense. Thank you kindly. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 08:09, 29 August 2017 (UTC)


 * You're quite welcome. I will mark this Q resolved. StuRat (talk) 17:54, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Identify this painting and photo?
Perhaps inspired by Le Déjeuner sur l’herbe, but with some actual lunch, and rational dress. Women picnicking. Cigarettes being languidly smoked. Bicycles lean against a tree. This is the New Woman resting from her labours, transported to the countryside thanks to the safety bicycle. Two images to identify: This painting was used by Bike Citizens, and this "Velo Vintage" photo came to light when I was searching for the painting. Can anyone help me identify either? Carbon Caryatid (talk) 23:08, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
 * First is Radlerinnen Picknick by Emanuel Bachrach-Barée. Appeared in "Allgemeine Illustrierte Zeitung" in 1897. Fuller image here. Nanonic (talk) 06:53, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you! How on earth did you find it? Carbon Caryatid (talk) 23:17, 31 August 2017 (UTC)