Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2017 December 4

= December 4 =

Messer
In The Book of the Courtier, the author refers to a "messer Cesare" a lot. What does "messer" mean in this case? I don't see it anywhere on Messer, nor on the messer Wiktionary entry. PseudoSkull (talk) 09:16, 4 December 2017 (UTC)


 * : From Italian messere, (before a title) messer, title of respect given to persons of importance, especially jurors, notaries, etc. from French mes sire. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  09:33, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
 * See messer or messere. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 15:55, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

Origin of left–right distinction: political and spatial criteria
Hello, I think that there is an inconsistency in some articles (Left–right political spectrum, Left-wing politics, Right-wing politics) regarding the origin of the left–right distinction. According to the cited articles, the distinction dates back to the Estates General of 1789, when the "the anti-monarchist Montagnard and Jacobin deputies from the Third Estate generally sat to the left" of the president point o view, and "the nobility, members of the Second Estate, generally sat to the right".

However, according to the French articles about the Parliement of France (see fr:Parlement français, fr:Liste des législatures françaises, fr:États généraux de 1789 etc.), in 1789, the nobility sat on the left, the Third Estate on the center, and the clergy on the right. Thus, the distinction at that time existed only in political terms, with the "left"/Third Estate and the "right"/nobility/clergy, but it did not yet exist in "spatial" terms, that is, of placement of the groups in the French Parliament.

It seems that only after 1791 (see fr:Assemblée nationale législative (Révolution française), with Jacobins-Girondins on the left, and Feuillants on the right, the distinction really emerged in spatial terms.

Later, in 1792 (see fr:Convention nationale), Jacobins-Montagnards became the new left, and Jacobin-Girondins turned to be the new right. Zorahia (talk) 14:23, 4 December 2017 (UTC)


 * If you disagree with what an article says and what it says is cited then you've got to show the citations has been misinterpreted or there is a reliable citation saying something else. We can't research things ourselves for putting in articles - that is called WP:OR. ARe you asking if someone can check up the citation against what you think or have you some better citation? You should also put your worry onto the talk page of a relevant article. The template dubious can also be put into the article after the sentence as in if one really is concerned that wa is there is wrong and have good reason to think otherwise.Dmcq (talk) 14:59, 4 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Here is one source outside of Wikipedia. -- Jayron 32 15:44, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Here is another. -- Jayron 32 15:45, 4 December 2017 (UTC)