Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2017 July 14

= July 14 =

When was the first African-American Southern Baptist pastor?
Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:55, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * George Lisle or Andrew Bryan in Savannah in the 1770s-1780s. Lisle probably has the best claim, licenced to preach perhaps as early as 1773. The Wikipedia's articles about them and the churches they founded have some contradictions in chronology.-- Jayron 32 03:13, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * But Sagittarian Milky Way, are you asking about black pastors of Baptist churches in the southern United States, or are you asking about black pastors of churches that are part of the Southern Baptist Convention? Jayron's articles cover early black pastors of Baptist churches in the southern United States, but neither of those men lived to see the establishment of the SBC in 1845.  Nyttend (talk) 23:48, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Well I was wondering about the Southern Baptist Convention but was glad to learn the answer to the general question (I wouldn't have expected it to be so antebellum!). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:11, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

When was the last US military route march?
Song and story associate the military with marching, and specifically with route march. A route march is a movement of troups that walk from one encampment to another, not a parade, a patrol, or a movement into or out of battle. It was nearly universal before the US Civil War, and I think it no longer happens at all except in excersizes, because troops move in motorized vehicles. When did the last non-practice route march of US troops occur? My guess is the Korean War. -Arch dude (talk) 04:18, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't know but I have left a message at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history to see if any of the experts there can help. Alansplodge (talk) 10:58, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, but the link you left them is to 'Humanities', because you missed out the 'Reference desk/' bit at the beginning! :) take care, &mdash;  fortuna  velut luna  11:32, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * D'oh! Now corrected. Alansplodge (talk) 12:14, 14 July 2017 (UTC)


 * The alternatives to marching into position are ground transportation (trains or wheeled vehicles), naval transfer, and air. Most of these require some type of infrastructure to be present (trains and tracks, roads, ports, air bases, etc.) and/or require a specific location, such as near a body of water, for naval transfer.  There are exceptions, though.  Paratroopers are one, but this is dangerous, and still requires an appropriate landing area.  Same for a beach invasion, like on D-Day.  Helicopter drops are a bit less dangerous, but still can't be used in all locations and weather conditions, and limited chopper availability limits how quickly you can deploy large numbers of troops.  So, it may well be that marching troops into position was still done recently, in a rather wild area.  It's certainly not ideal, though, as you don't want troops exhausted, with possible foot problems, when they arrive. StuRat (talk) 14:40, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks, StuRat. Infantry is characetrized as "straight-leg" (no trucks), motorized (trucks), mechanized (APCs), airborne (parachutes), or air-mobile (helicopter). Any infantry ordinarily fights "dismounted". The classification relates to how they (ordinarily) get to where they fight. However, even pure infantry will use whatever they can find to avoid marching if possible, including rented or commandeered vehicles. -Arch dude (talk) 20:58, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
 * The most obvious post-war example was the loaded march or yomp of 45 Commando and 3 Para across 56 miles of East Falkland in 1982. This was made necessary because most of the heavy-lift helicopters needed had been lost when the SS Atlantic Conveyor was sunk by an Exocet missile.
 * However, we're no closer to finding a US example. The best I could manage was the fighting retreat from the Battle of Chosin Reservoir at the end of 1950, at least part of which was on foot. Alansplodge (talk) 16:01, 14 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Was the fighting retreat in Korea really the planned coverage of a long distance in a short time? The article about WW2 US General Lucian Truscott says: "He led the division in the assault on Sicily in July 1943, coming under the command of the Seventh U.S. Army, commanded by Patton, now a lieutenant general. Here his training paid off when the division covered great distances in the mountainous terrain at high speed. The famous 'Truscott Trot' was a marching pace of five miles per hour over the first mile, thereafter four miles per hour, much faster than the usual standard of 2.5 miles per hour."Truscott sought to emulate Roman Legions and Stonewall Jackson. One source said " In Sicily this capacity paid huge dividends: like modern-day Roman legions, the 3rd Division marched the length and breadth of the island under grueling conditions. When Truscott’s infantrymen advanced more than 100 miles from Agrigento to Palermo over treacherous terrain in only three days, one general observed, 'What Truscott did in Sicily was to turn his infantry into cavalry.' "  Edison (talk) 02:42, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks, all. I suspect that The retreat from Chosin (and possibly other movements) qualify under my definition. The actual troops at the retreating front were not route marching, but troops further to the rear almost certainly were, in hastily-planned non-fighting movements to the rear. -Arch dude (talk) 20:38, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Turkish Wikipedia: black rectangle
Why does the Turkish Wikipedia have a black rectangle covering the WP globe image? Is this vandalism or demonstration of consensus about some ongoing issue?
 * Best Regards,
 * Barbara (WVS) ✐   ✉  10:52, 14 July 2017 (UTC)


 * See 2017 block of Wikipedia in Turkey for the details. Alansplodge (talk) 11:00, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

"Don't let food go up the first knuckle."
Which culture prohibits this? As a side note, it makes sense. Letting the food go past the first knuckle is just messy eating. 2600:387:0:805:0:0:0:A4 (talk) 13:25, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Where have you seen that rule? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:30, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I have a vague recollection of reading Forks, Spoons, Knives, and Chopsticks and the manners that go with them. I don't have the book with me now, because it was a library book, and I borrowed it because it was listed as a recommended book in Childcraft. 2600:387:0:805:0:0:0:A4 (talk) 21:45, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * India. There are still dishes which are eaten with your hand. You should use only your thumb and first two fingers. No food should touch the palm of your hand or anything past your first knuckle. You should eat with your right hand, not your left. That is reserved for other duties. There are many more specific etiquette rules based on the region. Our article on Etiquette of Indian dining is very lacking in the etiquette of eating with your hand. There are more in-depth answers elsewhere.   209.149.113.5 (talk) 17:00, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

What was the case of Jessie Brown?
From our article Personal Rights Association:
 * "One of the most prominent cases taken up by the PRA was that of Miss Jessie Brown."

The article was created 10 years ago and hasn't changed much since - no references to help, and I can't find anything with my clunky google-fingers. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 13:43, 14 July 2017 (UTC)


 * It is a case from Glagow. Jessie Brown was illegally arrested. Both constables were fined. How much the PRA was involved is debatable, but they covered the case extensively in their 1913 report. Confusion about this is easy to find. There is the case of "Jesse Brown", who was represented by an organization called the PRA in the United States. She was charged with shooting John Lee in 1903. It was covered in local press around Kansas City. There was an NAACP claim that a woman named "Jessie Brown" was killed by a white farmer in 1965. However, I see no evidence that the PRA was involved in that case. 209.149.113.5 (talk) 14:42, 14 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks! Do you have any links to those three cases? Carbon Caryatid (talk) 12:47, 17 July 2017 (UTC)


 * I found them on microfiche. Our library has online access to microfiche, but only on the local network. I googled, but didn't find an online copy of the PRA 1913 report. I couldn't find any online copies of newspapers around Kansas City, KS from 1903. There is a lot of stuff about Jessie Brown and the NAACP, but that is completely unrelated. 209.149.113.5 (talk) 13:23, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your efforts. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 16:46, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

alternate wording in Anne Frank diary
I'm wondering about variant wording in the diary. I understand that her Dutch was cleaned up for publication, so maybe one of these was her own wording? Or are there two editions?

In the famous quote where she says she wants to be Dutch after the war, there's:
 * En al zou ik aan de Koningin zelf moeten schrijven, ik zal niet wijken vóór mijn doel bereikt is.

vs
 * En als ik aan de koningin zelf moet schrijven, zal ik niet wijken voor mijn doel bereikt is.

I don't speak Dutch, so I can't tell if one has been corrected.

Thanks — kwami (talk) 21:01, 14 July 2017 (UTC)


 * you might want to move this to the Reference desk/Language or post a link there to this thread MarnetteD&#124;Talk 21:14, 14 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Okay. Thanks. — kwami (talk) 22:02, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Most likely the first because, in that both, form (En al zou ik) and information, pose/imply a similar high degree of Pathos or passion. The second sentences form seems to casual for the message it transports.
 * Besides that i am very shure that Anne Frank, like most children, was able to learn the new language very fast. Additionally, as i remember her diary, she was an excellent scholar and she also loved to read lots of books. So very likely she had atleast an impressive dutch vocabulary. Maybe even above common native dutch children her age. --Kharon (talk) 22:56, 14 July 2017 (UTC)


 * There are at least three different editions of Anne Frank's diary ([1] the manuscript as she wrote it; [2] the book as she edited it, and [3] the book as published, edited by her father.). If you want to learn which version is from which edition, you should consult The Diary of Anne Frank: The Revised Critical Edition. - Nunh-huh 23:19, 14 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Thank you both! — kwami (talk) 21:37, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

July 7th 2017 - Humanities Archive
All the replies (and the pages themselves) have been deleted - all that remains is the index of the questions (which are currently marked red) - Can someone restore these pages? Jaseywasey (talk) 23:01, 14 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Everything seems to be like it should in WP:RD/H. Looked on a wrong page maybe? --Kharon (talk)


 * Nope, I was looking at the correct page, StuRat fixed it, feel free to check the page history for yourself Jaseywasey (talk) 23:27, 14 July 2017 (UTC)


 * It was missing when I checked it several minutes ago. Looking at this StuRat has performed the necessary edits to fix the problems. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 23:29, 14 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Yep, I manually restored it. The "Buses and PSV" section was originally on July 8th, but it attempted to archive it on July 7th, and also did the archiving for both days at the same time. This may partially explain the problem. StuRat (talk) 23:30, 14 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your work in straightening this out SR. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 23:34, 14 July 2017 (UTC)


 * You're quite welcome. StuRat (talk) 23:42, 14 July 2017 (UTC)