Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2017 June 11

= June 11 =

Jewelry makers mark
I have some non-official military related pins that I picked up on eBay. I purchased one from a seller in Greece and others from Ukraine. They all have the same mark on the back. Is there any site that will help me identify the mark? My Google-fu has failed me on this one. --21lima (talk) 01:49, 11 June 2017 (UTC)


 * You need a good text description of the mark for the Google search. If you want to post a pic here, we might be able to help with that. StuRat (talk) 01:55, 11 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Well, there is Google Images, which features reverse image search, so you can drag and drop an image into the search box and see where similar images occur. Or you could try TinEye, although that seems less likely to be useful in this context.  --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:05, 11 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes, that approach is only likely to work if looking for a pic identical to your own, so even a change in angle would make it not find a match. StuRat (talk) 09:36, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, no. TinEye is using a fairly simple algorithm that is easily foiled by changes in lighting or composition (but fairly robust against rescaling or retouching). Google Image Search is more robust and will find quite a few variants. See [https://www.google.com/search?tbs=sbi:AMhZZiuJjT0OvQpE-Zp_1kVgm-AJAk3p07wWZj1uaQfXh9IbaP2OdW2EU-QUmgiq4SqHd9dV0SWEYz2CEHYlBqpUTlefZI5WE25XHPFxgnDNEl0hUSnnkjuRKRVLv6NUCMOPhg83Kzam-VlCHbrcgmGp7zowE65-rAo0GaMTih0alYMC8Dgy8S74Jp7eybevbMl7qGFJnDd_1zrGbt5atCqjtmNLnYJQ2tM0Agn-W1IvgCjyDGtdySalO_1Qm8h6gJZJyysoYvwEt2XEVrRkrnUxA9h8Tt7IBNKH9VpShq7w5J1nCc6toZht6LjoC957GkuhlByZ7bisy5fE1OjbbgCqiAgy_16JAMVJSd-mlFdioB8fS1qk4kOb-RP1oR9vGXJQmFHR-GeNwZ1YOvwxBRXgprloPET8Wo3zDTprKyELgM_1odmJJAchz_1gDrM023EsitUHb7wCFV6t1NfQDDLqhBlzqcgHNRtYNou193V8mNM3RfWbwQcTTvFcH0x68020Fr3Hcg-6-iPwA1MtSfwLiKo_15gMa0V25WDh9lHLdLevVwKZpenv-FpvwluwmAKcEhdc86p1ONy_1Maa9yl5fG6xmfzU2Zspu17CFSHAFRNVtTTNha03wN3OXL-jMFfTLxJPi4Zn26mtf-6Q8Z3OfJ2KEgovDcAbB4IhGPOPoO-PNodXhgyszFEBLSjkYmXVqg1nED52lDhUhzdR4EFOooygKUZq9gp_1w9st5BzIM5hIhXPJOPSU2X_1TknOzh8gN0y8Xkb9oqUxtcLdDuQAWFWOKBUGzImtZS_1ecBAyqEYGI-ogjI50M3NF7_10VvtLPRGNJjAWNhkTVF4HRWPisD5ReMBA6sjgn8iHEPCe_1derlLWB1CMdPwfrDnVMBKkPRTPdH5z4DNg-022YrlNVdUsm6dbQaHuJS5p-VjKEpPc_1vASiZLRq40FrGUdGsgNRrISGNDuVGVabRVHBKsoNseZnvW_1Wye2MwwGuOW2BxEKToze2DjdHgPO18G5pXwEcdH6ZHOOyc0os-h_13EB5zaml4l9di0GjByBKeQ5fASSFBFIQGYtQUuCaGAiR28V9MnvOT3R_1HXs073AsejPq4WC4LCUkpnhMKCaJwltv65YBIafVaQrxwTJjZ951lLzHrN578IR_13psDmiTPpE1rDvsCx7WgX4amV3CxUvG96UAbiqMAti-xvavNHpJNWU9XQJED_1xHmGA-iF8HEFD2rEk_18od8XCrtziejwEqZYBdguIHodQpQODmL1Sgfyj9yPv9ocqLl7QYulPe02Rq685CggN_1PeO-iHaVLCJzG3Dvyg1o_19MFic0vcGUOowK-6ZNieAzpSGC_1r249k--c6Jgmz7Ujc-pZl5zvbnt-nulG7cVgIra4u2mbug4AxEh7_1NKx63McryG00ceylx1rnOVH2ToBRIp0o7qN4pwQHuFM_1xiBszVhi5EIDc1AL-TmeoC5Mk6dzAalzsOrlrFL1O8xxaB-hqjTlByYGB7HoNEGBZV8E6WtFlcklIlWREsnUyWVyAi2AoCLvbDo_1OxgFccii75Q87Zu5y3J-Mi7Dxno7oA4KOMvqc8PVfO2cAQhW3BMePR0p3XtZas73rGDi6_13kBetjEi-_1lwqo2OBbHQGSl510f9BFUjCLl7v6vOyULtY_1t_1ql8ebUUb2NS0iRE8U-Uen74wTuw1zE6YD3uF4HT5Iewkox52ogikgZ5R7wKa6kbEpyxQpchzBAaOecO_1CMfkdQlyVgs1caLpzredPNzCapRF-ZGOO0PQJ4mks&hl=de-US] - the query is an image I snapped myself a few days ago, and there was no meta-data beyond what the iPhone added (time and place). Google correctly identified the ship and found quite different but similar images. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:07, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

This is the item. --21lima (talk) 00:07, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

2017 Bilderberg Conference
I'm looking for news coverage of the June 1 to 4 2017 Bilderberg Conference. Wow, it is hard to find. What's going on here? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 04:25, 11 June 2017 (UTC)


 * I think they go to some lengths to avoid news coverage.   D b f i r s   08:20, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
 * More fool them. Itsmejudith (talk) 11:35, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
 * There was a British TV programme about the secrecy surrounding the conferences some years ago, but I can't remember the details. I only remember a reporter being sworn at for asking questions.   D b f i r s   14:53, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
 * There are a lot of people who like to stay out of the limelight and whose opinion is extremely worthwhile compared to many of the narcissistic loudmouths who appear in the press. Such people tend to go around and see what is happening in their companies and talk to people rather than everything being about them. Dmcq (talk) 18:02, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, folks. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 01:37, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

Actually, Dbfirs, it seems to be the opposite. It is like all media go to great lengths to avoid Bilderberg. I mean, it is simply not mentioned anywhere in any mainstream media. They must all be in agreement. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 01:41, 12 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Perhaps it is because they got such a strong reaction when they did investigate, but you could be correct about some sort of agreement. Have we any evidence?    D b f i r s   06:13, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I disagree. The Guardian has run stories on it this year, see here, here and here. The reason it's not mentioned more widely is simple - it's not very newsworthy. --Viennese Waltz 11:40, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I noticed the Guardian pieces a few hours ago. In fact, that is the only major publication to mention it. Searching the other English biggies that the humans rely on such as CNN, Fox, BBC, Washpost, Chicago Tribune, LA Times, Spectator, Observer, Independent, Economist, Newsweek, USA Today, Boston Globe, NBC, CBS, ABC, etc. hardly a word, not even in their archives. Search non-newsworthy strings like "timex watch" or "puppy mill" or "cuckoo clock" and you get hits there recent and stretching years back. Bilderberg? It's more newsworthy than those, but nothing. Like their archives have been scrubbed. I've never seen anything quite like it in a decade of sourcing articles at enwp.


 * Anyhow, that's that. I guess the article could use a Guardian ref. All it has now is Bilderberg site refs. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 15:23, 12 June 2017 (UTC)


 * 'the humans? I hope you're not being too influenced by the person who comes here to talk about stuffing beans up their nose. Dmcq (talk) 09:33, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Ooh, I just looked in your basement and perhaps I better be careful ;) I try to keep The Trap Door firmly closed. Dmcq (talk) 09:48, 13 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes, no agreement: they just make it difficult for journalists to report anything. ( Quote from the first Guardian article: "spending hundreds of thousands of dollars keeping the press away from its sacred discussions, which has spent decades lying and obfuscating about itself". )   The Guardian's third article suggests not an agreement, but some possible top-down pressure: "All this is the kind of thing that should be headline news, but with the president of Turner International attending, we can be fairly sure Bilderberg won’t make many ripples at CNN. And British readers should not expect much coverage at the London Evening Standard either: their new editor and longtime Bilderberg attendee George Osborne is on the list, despite a general election looming in a week’s time."   D b f i r s   19:34, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Who wants to be seen as worth cultivating and given a fancy dinner then? Aw diddums. :) Dmcq (talk) 22:00, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

Where to find a book in English translation
With only the author's name and the original title in a foreign language, how to discover whether a book published in a non-English language has been translated to English? My Web searches have been inconclusive, and Goodreads isn't comprehensive, as its content is added by volunteers.
 * Try COPAC with the author's name. Itsmejudith (talk) 11:34, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks, but that was no better than the United States Library of Congress, where all titles for an author come up in something like alphabetical order for whatever publication format, but no clear way to know which translations exist and what are their titles. Goodreads, at least, links editions of an author's works so you can see, for example, the various and strange titles under which other languages have published their translations of La petite fille de Monsieur Linh by Philippe Claudel, so long as diligent volunteers have keyed in reliable information. I may resort to consulting users on the WikiProject Novels who may have more experience and success with such queries.  -- Deborahjay (talk) 12:58, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I should have said that COPAC would be very similar to Library of Congress. Is the issue that you don't know which foreign title corresponds to which English title? One by one it should be possible to find out, for example on publishers' websites, but if you have a batch to do, and if they are in different original languages it could be time consuming. I hope Wikiproject Novels can help, and you could also post on the Language helpdesk. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:34, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Kipling poem mentioned in L. Sprague de Camp's story "Nothing in the Rules"
L. Sprague de Camp wrote a story called "Nothing in the Rules" in 1939 about a New York swimming club that recruited a mermaid to swim in a swim meet. By the end of the story, she and one of the protagonists have fallen in love, but they have to separate since she's going back to the ocean. After she leaves, he has a friend drop him off at a bar in the city, and he walks off whistling a tune. The last two lines of the story, which are from the point of view of one of the other characters, are "Then he recognized the tune as one that was written for one of Kipling's poems. But he couldn't, at the moment, think which one." Clearly the reader is meant to figure it out. I've tried googling this and have had no luck; any idea which poem this might be? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:45, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
 * The only thing that springs to mind is On the Road to Mandalay which you can hear for yourself sung here by Lawrence Tibbett who curiously pronounces it "Mandalye". Alansplodge (talk) 12:47, 11 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Kipling and Music 'The tunes that mean so much' by Brian Mattinson for The Kipling Society says that although Kipling was tone deaf, all of his poems are in metres that can be sung and it has been suggested that he had various well-known tunes in mind when he wrote them. The article mentions a number of settings for Kipling's poems, perhaps the only notable one is the Edward German's Just So suite of songs, but Mandalay is far better known. An 1897 setting by Walter Damrosch (1862-1950) of Danny Deever was "reputedly Teddy Roosevelt's favourite song"; you can listen to it here sung by Leonard Warren, but if you can whistle that dreary dirge, you deserve a small prize.  Alansplodge (talk) 13:09, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Mandalay does seem like a good bet; perhaps the line "I've a neater, sweeter, maiden in a cleaner, greener land" is what de Camp was thinking of. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:15, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
 * And perhaps "where the flying fishes play". Alansplodge (talk) 13:38, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
 * One more candidate is Rolling Down to Rio which our Just So Songs article says "proved to be particularly popular" (it refers to the Edward German suite mentioned above). You can even whistle the tune. The text is here and could be relevant to the story if the mermaid was heading for South America (?). Alansplodge (talk) 16:52, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Surely one of the best-known to Americans would be "Gentlemen-Rankers", adapted and popularised by the Yale a cappella group as the the Whiffenpoof song. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 15:02, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

Any historians of American presidents here?
I don't want this to get political or anything and I'm not a massive Trump hater, but is the Trump presidency the worst start to a presidency in the history of the US? Has there been presidents with a worse first 8 months? If not, who comes closest? 2.102.186.130 (talk) 13:37, 11 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Trump took office Jan 20, so we are coming up on 6 months, not 8. As to the Q, we could probably answer in terms of polling results, for recent Presidents.  Also, William Henry Harrison died of pneumonia, probably as a result of his long inaugural speech, outside, in bad weather, a month after taking office (is this God's way of telling him to shut up already ?).  It's hard to do any worse than that.  StuRat (talk) 15:12, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Within a few days of taking office in 1974, Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon, a decision described as a "profoundly unwise, divisive and unjust act" by the New York Times while others called it a "corrupt bargain". So not a brilliant start; our Pardon of Richard Nixon article tells the story. Alansplodge (talk) 17:04, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I am a massive Trump hater, but for the sheer volume and variety of controversies/lies/investigations/incompetence/ignorance and paltry accomplishments so far, he has to take the cake. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:46, 12 June 2017 (UTC)


 * The start of Lincoln's presidency was marred by the entire south seceding from the union. I don't think anything like that has happened before or since. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:27, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
 * For the win. --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106; &#x1D110;&#x1d107; 05:41, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
 * And he is now considered one of the greatest presidents ever, so, you know, things can change... Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:07, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Sorry, they started seceding before Lincoln was president. Remember, inauguration day used to be in March. Admittedly it happened because be was elected, but it still doesn't count as an event during his first months in office. --76.71.5.114 (talk) 07:29, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Doesn't count to whom? --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106; &#x1D110;&#x1d107; 13:49, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I would love if the OP could clarify their question (I will assume IPs are human too, and they may return), lest we get bogged down in debate. Though admittedly, I do find some of the answers here interesting. Failing that, is there any way anyone can track down polling results for past Presidents at the 6 month mark, or thereabouts? Eliyohub (talk) 14:45, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
 * 538 has a comparison chart you can look at here that compares Trump's approval rating against each President going back to Truman. Approval rating polling is very recent and anything prior will likely be weighted or comparing apples to oranges. uhhlive (talk) 19:22, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Trump has a few percentage points less than his percent of the popular vote in 2016. Is it certain that that dip is statistically significant? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:51, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

But weren't most of the polls on Trump's popularity conducted by big media? If so, how can we trust them given their notorious left-wing bias?70.170.21.121 (talk) 15:56, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Hell,according to this poll, http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-muslim-ban-travel-immigration-refugees-iran-iraq-syria-a7556186.html more Americans supported than opposed his Muslim travel ban. Yet most of the major media outlets gave it negative coverage. It's really true. Powerful and wealthy elitists are trying to brainwash us with far-left antiwhite propaganda each day.70.170.21.121 (talk) 16:03, 16 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Technically this violates the guideline against requests for "opinion and debate" -- obviously this question's answer depends on the politics of the respondent. But I'll leave it to Trump to write My Struggle against Four and a Half Months of Lies, Stupidity, and Cowardice -- note he has not yet been in office for five, so we have a while to go yet. :( Wnt (talk) 16:25, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Reason of child abuse
Why would people commit child abuse? Why would they be cruel or physically harm children (especially their own)? 31.48.57.254 (talk) 14:55, 11 June 2017 (UTC)


 * 1) See pecking order. It seems to apply to some humans too, that if they feel abused they feel better, or higher in the pecking order, if they can then heap abuse on others.


 * 2) For mental abuse, sometimes it is well meaning, if they feel they can get their kids to achieve more by telling them that whatever they did achieve isn't good enough. See tiger mom for an example. StuRat (talk) 15:18, 11 June 2017 (UTC)


 * First take a look at Child_abuse. Really, I'm normally tolerant, but I don't think your free association is helpful. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:53, 11 June 2017 (UTC)


 * He's not wrong, especially about item one. Those who commit abuse were often abused themselves. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:30, 11 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Some human's what, Stu? --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  02:38, 12 June 2017 (UTC)


 * (Extraneous aposthrophe removed.) The term "pecking order" was originally for chickens, where it is literally a hierarchy of which chickens peck at which others. The extension to humans is that they sometimes exhibit similar behavior, in that they attempt to harm or humiliate those they consider "beneath" themselves. StuRat (talk) 03:20, 12 June 2017 (UTC)


 * What's an aposthrophe, Stu? --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  05:05, 12 June 2017 (UTC)


 * That's what Daffy Duck calls that punctuation mark. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:08, 12 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Apostrophe. StuRat (talk) 14:50, 12 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Something you can put in your throphe case after winning the Apos. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:57, 12 June 2017 (UTC)


 * :-) I once knew a Miss Ann Thrope, but she was way to friendly and outgoing for my tastes. StuRat (talk) 02:16, 13 June 2017 (UTC)


 * "Way to friendly", eh. Way to go.  You're on a roll, Stu.  Really loving your endless "alternate grammar" choices lately.  :)  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  03:02, 13 June 2017 (UTC)


 * There's a political faction dedicated to incorrect grammar and usage. It's called the "alt-wrong" movement. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:32, 13 June 2017 (UTC)


 * ...and an alternate faction dedicated to control of content and removal of anything they disagree with, called "control-alt-delete". :-) StuRat (talk) 17:15, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

They would hurt or treat them cruelly because...? 31.48.57.254 (talk) 17:51, 11 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Because they have a psychological compulsion to do so. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:28, 11 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Note that Munchausen syndrome by proxy is another potential cause of child abuse. Here the goal of the abuser is to receive praise for caring for the apparently sick child, or perhaps financial gain in the form of donations.  StuRat (talk) 01:16, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

If I see or hear a person abusing or threatening to abuse a child, I would come to them personally, punch them in the face, report them to the police and tell them to throw them in prison. 31.48.57.254 (talk) 14:33, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
 * While awaiting your own trial for assault and battery. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:59, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

Necklaces & Bracelets used by
gays or bisexuals. Are there any unique such accessories used by gays and/or bisexuals ? Or, they just the regular stuff used by males (or females, accordingly). What about earings ? Thank you, בנצי (talk) 18:48, 11 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Lots of straight men wear earrings nowadays. I recall a quote from a college football player a few years back, talking about his coach: "He treats us like men. He lets us wear earrings." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:32, 11 June 2017 (UTC)


 * For a while, edgy/hipster heterosexual men in the U.S. almost always wore earrings in one ear only, but I'm not sure that's entirely true any more. Sometimes LGBT people have worn multicolored metal "freedom rings" or "fruit loops" on a necklace, but I'm not sure how common that is nowadays...  If a woman wears a labrys pendant on her necklace, then it's a fairly safe bet that she's a lesbian. AnonMoos (talk) 22:38, 11 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Or a Minoan 🦄 - Nunh-huh 19:30, 12 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Is that supposed to mean anything in particular? AnonMoos (talk) 09:02, 13 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Labrys: "The Labrys is most closely associated in historical records with the Minoan civilisation which reached its peak in the 2nd millennium BC, and specifically with the worship of a goddess." Bus stop (talk) 10:27, 13 June 2017 (UTC)


 * I already knew that (I've been participating in discussions on Talk:Labrys since 2006). However, Minoan civilization collapsed around 1450 B.C. and I don't know of any particular evidence that Minoan women wore labrys necklace pendants, so I still have no particular idea what purpose Nunh-huh's remarks were intended to serve... AnonMoos (talk) 13:25, 13 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Oh, OK. Bus stop (talk) 13:57, 13 June 2017 (UTC)


 * In Britain it's commonplace to see men wearing one earring.  Some of them walk around with rather elaborate "manbags". 79.73.131.8 (talk) 09:06, 13 June 2017 (UTC)


 * LGBT culture may be an article of possible relevance. Do note that whilst some Gays and Lesbians may "fit the stereotype" in the way they dress, others will dress and act like everyday men and women. This past question may be a good example of the issues? Do beware of Confirmation bias. No doubt we pass many Gays and Lesbians on a daily basis, without a clue as to their sexual orientation. Whilst those whose appearance fits the "culture" will stick in our memory. Eliyohub (talk) 14:54, 12 June 2017 (UTC)


 * We have a more specific LGBT symbols article (it's a little odd that the "LGBT culture" article doesn't seem to link to it). AnonMoos (talk) 09:02, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
 * It does now. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:12, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Arthur Young from Samoa
Can anyone help me find more info on a British or American trader named Arthur Young (also sometimes Arthur Stephen Young or Arthur Pa'u Young)? I am confused if the name are of two men: an English father and a half-white son or if they are just one person A lot the sources seem to disagree. One of them married a woman named Amipelia and was the father of Tui Manu'a Matelita and lived on Ta‘ū although he may have been originally from Upolu. I am already aware of this source. I am looking more to draw a clearer picture on both son and father (if they are two separate persons). Thanks.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:34, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I sought, but found not. Alansplodge (talk) 14:53, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I saw a genealogy post saying that he should be looked for in the 1841 Census in Britain. That would be worth doing, but it is a common name and London, Middlesex was already a big city. You might be more likely to find his baptism record, and then that might lead you to his parents and siblings. And then to which ships he sailed on. It does seem likely tht he would have had a son in the 1850s, and it would be quite probable that the son of an Arthur Stephen would be called Arthur Paul. Unless Pa'u has an identifable meaning in Samoan. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:39, 12 June 2017 (UTC)