Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2017 June 14

= June 14 =

Tui Manuʻa Elisala/Elisara
Can anyone help me find corroborating sources for the date "25 October 1899" as the accession date for Tui Manuʻa Elisala? The article is written without source and almost everything I can search online just state stuff about his role as the last titleholder and the cession to the US, nothing else about the other parts of his life. Augustin Kraemer wrote a lot on the Manu'a Islands and the Tui Manu'a title, but he left Polynesia when the title was still vacant.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:56, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Apologies if I've misread you, but did you check Google books specifically? There seems to be a few mentions of him, although I haven't looked on depth.  &mdash;  O Fortuna   semper crescis, aut decrescis  05:36, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Nothing seems to talk about his accession date which is the main point I am trying to corroborate and find more about. The sources that I've found only talk about his death or the cession to the the US which occurred later in his reign. Also many of the results seem to be dud results especially after page 1 on the Google Book results.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:38, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Abbreviation for His Majesty's Troopship
What is the correct abbreviation for this? HMT was used in the Second World War for His Majesty's Trawler, but would it also be correct to use it for His Majesty's Troopship? Ericoides (talk) 05:33, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Yeah . &mdash;  O Fortuna   semper crescis, aut decrescis  05:39, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Ah, thanks! Ericoides (talk) 05:49, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Glad that link worked ok, it wouldn't give me a page number? &mdash;  O Fortuna   semper crescis, aut decrescis  06:33, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
 * See also this 2011 discussion which has some more links. Alansplodge (talk) 08:49, 14 June 2017 (UTC)


 * The article Ship prefix suggests that it should be written as "HM Troopship" (and "HM Trawler"). HMT is listed as Hired Military Transport (obsolete). Wymspen (talk) 10:18, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Good advice, although ignored by their Lordships at the Admiralty. The discussion linked above notes an example where HMT is used for His Majesty's Tug. Alansplodge (talk) 12:14, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Roman inscriptional style
I've been reading ancient Roman epitaphs and wall inscriptions (mostly from CIL) and many, if not the majority of them feature a characteristic florid, poetic style (similar to Asiatic style, even in obscenities), unlike modern epitaphs and especially street inscriptions. Was it rooted in the ancient mentality that appreciated eloquence or there were other reasons, maybe a tradition to write like that? Brandmeistertalk  14:07, 14 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur, you know. —Tamfang (talk) 09:38, 15 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I was going to say it might be a matter of translators translating things in an inappropriately florid style...Brandmeister, can you give us some examples? I am thinking of the obscene graffiti in Pompeii, which is sometimes short and rude, but sometimes unexpectedly poetic, as you say. Adam Bishop (talk) 10:30, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Winchester College degree?
The article Szeming Sze says that the doctor received a degree from Winchester College in chemistry and from Cambridge University in medicine. How plausible is it that Winchester College would have granted degrees in the 1920s? The statement is not found in the source cited in that paragraph, but the New York Times (which is cited elsewhere in the article) says that Dr Sze "received degrees in chemistry and medicine at Winchester College and Cambridge University". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 15:58, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Completely implausible, I would say, as Winchester has never been a University. Following a link from the reference (rather a painful process, as it only shows one page at a time, very slowly), 'Reminiscences of the early years, 1908-1934' has information about his time at Winchester, but (not surprisingly) I can't see anything about his getting a degree there. (Technically the article is also wrong to say he was awarded a degree by Christ's College: Cambridge degrees are given by the University, not the colleges.) I suspect the NYT's statement is based on a misunderstanding of what Winchester College is. I'm not sure how we're supposed to deal with reliable sources that give information that is clearly wrong... AndrewWTaylor (talk) 16:56, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm here for the above discussion but saw this; I had the dubious pleasure of attending Win. Coll. myself and can confirm that it is a public (i.e. private) school for men (i.e. boys) aged 13 to 18. Ericoides (talk) 17:05, 14 June 2017 (UTC)


 * I note that his father Alfred Sao-ke Sze became ambassador to the UK in 1928, when his son was 20 years old. It therefore seems possible, though perhaps unlikely, that he was at Winchester College in England. Before that his father was, for eight years, head of the Chinese legation to the USA, during the period when his son would have been completing his schooling and studying for a first degree. He may, therefore, have done the chemistry degree in the USA, then came to England with his family to study medicine. On the other hand, his Washington Post obit (https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1998/11/09/szeming-sze-dies/5179fe90-55f7-4142-8a07-9f4f9e09d699/?utm_term=.7b9d876bad1b) says he was educated in England, and only mentions the medical degree. This WHO document (http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/10665/46414/1/WHF_1988_9_1_p29-34.pdf) says he graduated from Cambridge in 1928 and from St Thomas's Hospital Medical School in 1932. This document (http://pittarchives.tumblr.com/post/101922785408/dr-szeming-sze-and-the-world-health-organization) says he got degrees in Chemistry and Medicine from Cambridge - but also says his father was in the UK when he was born, which contradicts other sources. Highly contradictory. Wymspen (talk) 18:02, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Sze senior returned to China in 1905 after graduating from Cornell and appeared to have been working in China in 1908-1910. He was the Chinese minister to the UK first in 1914-1920, so it is not implaussible that Sze junior was already in school in the UK in 1920 and so continued his education at a British boarding school after his father moved to the US.
 * Anyway, thank you all for the responses, the interpretation in the article that he got a chemistry degree from Winchester College seems absolutely implausible. I am going to amend the article with a fudge to say he was educated at Winchester and then Cambridge, and that he received degrees in Chemistry and Medicine. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 11:12, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Whore of Babylon
Explain simplistically, in step by step manner, from beginning to the end about this Harlot. 116.58.202.31 (talk) 17:16, 14 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Do you have a specific question? Our article gives plenty of information. You can find the book of Revelation here . Also, please note that starting a post here with "Explain" may sound rude to many readers. It's imperative mood, and almost sounds like you're issuing a command.  Tone can be hard to understand here, but when asking volunteers to spend time helping you for free, I find it's best to err on the side of politeness. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:28, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Also: I suspect you mean "simply", not "simplistically". - Nunh-huh 20:39, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
 * In Koine Greek, or Bangla? μηδείς (talk) 19:42, 14 June 2017 (UTC)


 * From beginning of what to the end of what? —Tamfang (talk) 09:36, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
 * It's perfectly simple :) Gravely, 'begin at the beginning and go on till you come to the end: then stop.'


 * This question is not answerable, because the Humanities, unlike the Sciences, is not a procedural science. One can describe the Harlot's characteristics and behaviors, but one cannot explain step-by-step about the Harlot. The Harlot is a thing, not a set of instructions. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 02:27, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Not only that, but the article makes it clear that the thing in question is uncertain anyway. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:48, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Zakat
How does it work? Someone said, the percentage depends on how much a 7.5 (something) gold’s weight is at the current Ramadan time. What do they mean? 116.58.200.29 (talk) 17:24, 14 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Please see our long and detailed article on Zakat. If you have some specific question about something explained there, please let us know. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:29, 14 June 2017 (UTC)