Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2017 May 14

= May 14 =

Most recent Catholic-Protestant conflicts
The clash between Catholics and Protestants tore Europe apart on and off for centuries. My question is, with the blindingly obvious exception of The Troubles (which seem like an oddity of a bygone era to me!), which would be the most recent conflicts in Europe with a significant Catholic vs Protestant element?

I'd be interested in conflicts in which this was an element of the conflict or strife, even if there were other major factors. I'm mostly interested in Europe, even if the most recent examples are, say, a century or more old. Though I'd be mildly curious about other places in the world too. My question is purely Catholic vs Protestant (including any "Protestant" denominations). I'm not asking about other schisms within Christianity, such as Catholic vs Orthodox, as occurred in the gruesome breakup of the former Yugoslavia. Eliyohub (talk) 13:29, 14 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Well, the Troubles had their roots in the Irish War of Independence, which in turn was prefigured by the Easter Rising and any amount of 19th century Irish revolutionary violence, all of which had a large religious element. Outside of Ireland but inside Europe I can't think of any war where Protestant/Catholic differences played a large part since the Belgian Revolution of 1830–1831 and the Sonderbund War of 1847. --Antiquary (talk) 14:29, 14 May 2017 (UTC)


 * If by "conflict" you mean not just open warfare but opposing groups fighting for what they see as their fair share of the political pie, then there are many examples. I started with Category:Anti-Catholicism by country and Category:Anti-Protestantism. Just in Britain I came across Sectarianism in Glasgow, the Monklands East by-election, 1994, the Liverpool Protestant Party opposing "Rome on the rates" (a new expression to me - council tax paying for Catholic schools). In France there is the Action Française: "Different groups of the French far right had especial animus against either the Jews, Huguenots (French Protestants), or Freemasons. These four groups of "internal foreigners" Maurras called les quatre états confédérés and were all considered to be part of "Anti-France"." Carbon Caryatid (talk) 20:08, 14 May 2017 (UTC)


 * It's outside of Europe, but the OP may be interested in Anti-Catholicism in the United States, which has some interesting stuff in it, such as JFK Catholicism being a factor in the 1960 election. Matt Deres (talk) 21:03, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

Precedence in "Persuasion"
I have recently read "Persuasion" (Jane Austen) and am curious about the notion of precedence. I can't find any info under wiki precedence. There are a couple of cases involving Mary Musgrove. In one, she complains that her mother-in-law Mrs. Musgrove sometimes forgets to give her precedence, while her daughters, and Mary's sisters-in-law, Louisa and Henrietta complain that Mary should stop making it such an issue. (I assume the precedence is because Mary is the daughter of a baronet, while the Musgroves are "only" landed gentry, although it's strange with Mary having precedence over her own mother-in-law.) 1) When is precedence used and how does it work? (dinner parties are mentioned as one occasion, are there others?). 2) Was this only in England, or in other countries too? 3) When did the English stop doing it? Thank you, ZygonLieutenant (talk) 18:01, 14 May 2017 (UTC)


 * see Orders of precedence in the United Kingdom, it is (still) practiced at formal social and state occasions. Also take a look at the article listed in Category:Orders of precedence for other countries. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 18:49, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Although probably not at a family gathering! It's really only at the most formal dinners, balls and receptions. As for usage, see Debretts - Seating Plans and Precedence. Alansplodge (talk) 19:34, 14 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Alas, the subject of precedence is inadequately covered in our article Georgian society in Jane Austen's novels. However, we can refer the gentle reader to outward sources. There is a chapter on precedence in What Jane Austen Ate and Charles Dickens Knew: From Fox Hunting to Whist-the Facts of Daily Life in Nineteenth-Century England (2012) by Daniel Pool. There is further explanation here and here. From the British Library site, an essay on "Status, rank and class in Jane Austen's novels" by John Mullan sums it up: "Mary Musgrove carelessly and constantly offends her in-laws by her insistence on her precedence on social occasions because she is the daughter of a baronet while they are mere country gentry."
 * Other countries certainly had and have their own ways of showing social standing, but that is a large subject compared to the rigid specificity of Georgian England. As to whether the English have stopped doing it, dinner party seating is still a classic source of social anxiety, for hosts and guests. A recent Tatler article claims to de-code the "placement" and up-end the etiquette, and it makes the valid point that the underlying reason is not to make everyone miserable. "The thing to remember is that placements/seating plans/whatever are essentially kind, because they prevent that awful milling about and prep-school seat-saving that happens when you let folk go freestyle." Carbon Caryatid (talk) 20:33, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Note that Persuasion isn't the only Austen novel that touches on this subject; it gets mentioned in passing in Pride and Prejudice when Lydia and Wickham visit Longbourne after their marriage. This is what Lydia's talking about when she says "Jane, I take your place now, and you must go lower, because I am a married woman".  Nyttend (talk) 22:56, 14 May 2017 (UTC)