Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2017 May 4

= May 4 =

No money = no marriage?
Q.1. There is a scene in Great Expectations (2012) where Herbert Pocket says he wants to marry so-and-so, but he doesn't have the money yet; that's why he intends to delay marriage. In the novel A Christmas Carol, by Charles Dickens, there is that girl who tells Ebenezer Scrooge that she's a "dowerless" girl. The same concept seems to flow: no money means no marriage. If that is the case, then how did the poor peasants get married?

Q.2. If one is living on a farm, then would one receive a sexual education by observing and manipulating farm animals? Or did people just think that if a male and a female were put together in the same house, then babies would appear inexplicably? 50.4.236.254 (talk) 03:03, 4 May 2017 (UTC)


 * I split your 2 questions for ease of comprehension. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  03:23, 4 May 2017 (UTC)


 * According to Sex education, before formal sex education courses, about-to-be-married persons were typically told about this by their parents prior to their marriage, if they hadn't figured it out already from watching animals or walking in on another couple in the act. According to Dowry, the wealthy sometimes payed dowries for the poor as a form of charity, and from the looks of it, the dowry for a poor woman might not have been that much back then. Premarital sex mentions that in such times, marriage was expected to follow an out-of-wedlock pregnancy. So maybe the parents could be encouraged to relax their conditions on the dowry if you forced the issue? But that's just my speculation. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:38, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
 * On the other question it's not the absence of evidence which is the cause any of unwilling pregnancies, but rather a preference for not knowing. Thus all times there were ones who could definitely deliver information about the process, women who had themselves survived any series of childbearing years. --Askedonty (talk) 08:50, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

50.4.236.254 -- during the 19th century in England, most couples who aspired to live a middle-class lifestyle after their marriage had to have a middle-class family income already lined up (in one way or another), or it would not be realistic for them to get married in the first place. Dowry payments in the formal sense weren't too common outside aristocratic elites, but it was quite common for both the bride's family and the groom's family to make what contributions they reasonably could towards the couple's future expenses in setting up and running a new household (sometimes formalized as legal "settlements"). It was a little different for the lower classes, but Malthus wrote about the preventive check of delaying the age of marriage among those who can't afford it... AnonMoos (talk) 04:34, 4 May 2017 (UTC)


 * I guess there's no Wikipedia article on "preventive check(s)", though there probably should be... AnonMoos (talk) 04:42, 4 May 2017 (UTC)


 * I've redirected the term to Malthusianism. Rojomoke (talk) 09:23, 4 May 2017 (UTC)


 * The dowry was the property that the bride brought to the marriage, and was often subject to a legal agreement known as a marriage settlement. Sometimes this was known as a "portion". (Not strictly a reliable source, but a readable overview: The Regency Estate: How it was Apportioned.) Some of the portable items the bride brought are described under trousseau and hope chest. What the groom brought to the marriage could better be described as his prospects. A young man needed to have finished his apprenticeship, or the equivalent for those of the professional classes, and have established himself in the world, before responsible parents would consent to their daughter's marriage. So he needed a good job, first and foremost, or a share in an established company. He had to be able to "keep" a family (remember that children, once they started coming, might arrive with unpredictable frequency). The assumption (in many of the gradations of social class described by Dickens) is that respectable married women did not work outside the home, and did not need to earn money. As for "poor peasants", Herbert Pocket was first encountered as a "pale young gentleman", and although Scrooge's boyhood sweetheart was poor, I could read no inference of country life. Agricultural workers could, in theory, go to "the big house" (their employer, the squire) for help, or to the vicar. Feudalism was dead, but noblesse oblige. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 12:43, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Did the ancient Chinese explore and map out Siberia (North Asia)?
Did any ancient Chinese explorer go to the greater Siberia region and make maps of it? What was his name? Did the ancient Korean and Japanese also explore and map out Siberia? 2607:FEA8:A760:324:ADB0:8DB4:AE65:6453 (talk) 12:16, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

How far back do you consider to be ancient? In the 2nd c. BC, Zhang Qian went to what is now Tajikistan and along the way ‘discovered’ tribes in Central Asia3 The Chinese knew of the Xirong (“western warlike people”) and Beidi (“northern barbarians”) peoples as early as the Shang Dynasty (1765-1122 BCE). During the same millennium, trade between from Badakhshan (Afghanistan/Pakistan) through Yarkland (Xinjiang) to China was common. So, it might be more accurate to ask when the Sredny Stog nomads explored what later became China.DOR (HK) (talk) 13:50, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
 * History of Siberia and Prehistory of Siberia are places you can go to help you research this. -- Jayron 32 14:11, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Base on Chinese cosmology, they were aware of Lake Baikal and thought it was a Northern Sea where the Northern Dragon King lived. And according to the Lake Baikal article, the Chinese fought the Han-Xiongnu War up to its shores.. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 16:23, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Not specific examples of explorers, but they definitely knew of, made military expeditions into and claimed parts of Siberia; see Han–Xiongnu War, and the Tang Dynasty Beiting Protectorate (zh) and Protectorate General to Pacify the North (zh). Sakhalin provides some information on Japanese exploration and colonization to their north, albeit in the 1600s. Korean kingdoms at various points in history also had loose control over some of eastern Siberia/Manchuria (e.g. Goguryeo, Balhae).

L. Monaco
Does anybody know when L. Monaco a 19th-century photographer on 702 Market Street, California was active from (i.e. specific year range)? Also what did the L stand for in his name?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 16:18, 4 May 2017 (UTC)


 * "Seventeen year old Louis Monaco arrived in California from his native Switzerland in 1859... In the late 1860s he became interested in photography and eventually established his first studio on C Street in Virginia City. He moved the studio to Eureka Nevada in 1871 and was soon acknowledged as one of the premiere photographers of that booming mining town. His younger brother, JB, newly arrived from the "old country" joined him there in 1875. The two brothers remained in Eureka through good times and bad until a severely declining Eureka economy prompted their move to San Francisco in 1888". They moved to 702 Market St after "approximately two years".  The same article goes on to say that Louis died in 1887, but that must be a typo for "1897".  Alansplodge (talk) 16:28, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I also found these pictures of the Monaco family in the ruins of 702 Market St following the 1906 San Francisco earthquake. Alansplodge (talk) 16:32, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks, so a photograph labeled "L. Monaco" with the Market Street address would most likely be from between 1890 and 1897, correct?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:02, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Correct (most likely). Alansplodge (talk) 08:33, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

How did humans travel before knowledge about other languages became readily available?
If a human wants to travel from Point A, which is in the Middle East, to Point B, which is in China, and doesn't know a single thing about the culture or language, then how would he communicate with the locals who look like humans and seem to talk like humans? For example, Jews migrated from the Middle East to China and settled there and interbred with the natives and built synagogues. How long does it take for one group of people to learn a language of another group of people without bilingual dictionaries? 140.254.70.33 (talk) 18:11, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
 * The example of Lewis and Clark is instructive; they found a translator at one end of the journey who knew enough to translate the language with the next group of people. Then, they'd take someone from that group along to translate for the next group.  At one point, a chain of translators as deep as 4-5 languages would get going.  here we see the example of English -> French -> Hidatsa -> Shoshone and then back again.  It was laborious, but it got the job done.  -- Jayron 32 18:28, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
 * How did the translator know of European languages? Could people marry people from another tribe without a common language and the child will understand both parents' languages? 140.254.70.33 (talk) 18:34, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Did you read the article i linked or are you just riffing on ideas in your head without actually looking at what I have provided? It actually lists a chain of translations from a specific example with specific people who each knew two languages well enough to translate from the last person in the chain to the next one.  It's not complicated.  -- Jayron 32 18:52, 4 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Some languages were known across a whole region as a lingua franca. Marco Polo for instance, is thought to have had a knowledge of Persian, which was understood at the court of the Yuan emperors. Latin and Greek (and later French) were understood by educated people right across Europe, and Arabic across the Middle East and much of Africa. When Francis Xavier went to Japan in 1547, he just had to teach himself Japanese from scratch - see History of the Catholic Church in Japan. By the time William Adams arrived in Japan in 1600, he was saved from having to communicate with impromptu sign-language by a Christian convert at the Shogunal court who spoke Portuguese, which Adams had a working knowledge of.   Alansplodge (talk) 19:44, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Also there is often a genetic relationship between languages from the same family. A Romanian friend claimed to be able to understand spoken Spanish, despite having no knowledge of the language. Sadly, he found that Spaniards can't understand Romanian. Alansplodge (talk) 20:11, 4 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Given time one side could teach the other their language - or at least what was necessary for communication at first. It's not actually as difficult as it sounds, since many words can be learned by sight, actions and repetition. Any children born and raised in areas where the two sides met (particularly those of mixed birth) could also easily gain a working understanding of both languages. Alternatively pidgin/creole languages were be developed to allow basic trade-related communication between the two sides, for example Chinese Pidgin English and Macanese Patois. Merchants and sailors would spend plenty of time resting and resupplying after reaching foreign ports, after all. And finally as mentioned above knowledge of intermediate languages could aid communication - e.g. the Portuguese could use Arabic to communicate with Indians. Alcherin (talk) 20:56, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
 * See also Language contact. Alcherin (talk) 21:06, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Are you the same person as the one who keeps on putting similar type questions here with the ip 50.4.236.254 ? Dmcq (talk) 22:21, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Both IP's geolocate to the same spot in Ohio. The one in this section specifically goes to Ohio State U. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:43, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
 * The Romani people migrated from India to Europe. Sleigh (talk) 04:19, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * This happened over a period of about 1,000 years, (32-40 generations according to our article) allowing plenty of time for gradual assimilation. μηδείς (talk) 01:49, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Picture Post cover
I have just got hold of a copy of Three Plays by Laurie Lee. On the cover is a photograph of Lee writing. On the wall in thebackground is a Picture Post cover with a dark-haired woman in a blouse. I would like to know which issue the cover is from, and the story the picture accompanied, and the identity of the woman too if possible. You can see the picture here. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 23:28, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
 * If you google image "picture post magazine front covers", which I just did but have not examined the results yet, it's possible the cover is in there. If all else fails, it appears there's a pay site that has an archive of the magazine's pictures. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:35, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * It ran weekly from 1938 to 1957 so there's the best part of a thousand possibilities. Alansplodge (talk) 08:28, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Google image search for "picture post" cover gives a more targeted selection than Bugs's suggestion, but I can't see that particular cover in the results. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 09:31, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Government of North Korea powers on paper, regardless of practical reality

 * 1) On paper, who is the most powerful official in North Korea? Is it Kim Jong-un as the chairman of the State Affairs Commission, or Kim Yong-nam as the President of the Presidium of the Supreme People's Assembly, or Pak Pong-ju as the Prime Minister of North Korea, or someone else?  I'm ignoring the President, since I doubt that many government responsibilities, even on paper, are assigned to dead people.
 * 2) On paper, do any Workers' Party officials have any governmental power? I understand that there's a lot of overlap between Party officeholders and government officeholders; I'm just talking about the governmental powers (if any) that on paper are assigned to Party offices.  And again, ignoring the General Secretary of the Party, since he is dead.  Nyttend (talk) 23:56, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Corpses have been put on trial, complete with counsel appointed to represent them. The North Koreans are obviously doing an old practice in reverse. Eliyohub (talk) 05:32, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Because the DPRK is a communist-led government, exact demarcation of duties and responsibilities is rarely an important feature of leadership. The Supreme People’s Assembly is the highest state organ, and its chair is the de facto Head of State. The Prime Minister (Head of Government) is the senior-most civilian official, but he has no authority over the armed forces. The National Defense Commission chair (Kim Jong-un) is simultaneously the Supreme Commander of the armed forces and militia. Under the 2009 constitutional amendment, this position is that of the “supreme leader of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea.” Command and control is exercised through the Ministry of People's Armed Forces, which reports to the State Affairs Commission of North Korea. Interestingly, I find nothing in our articles indicating if the army is the state's army, or that of the party (as in China).DOR (HK) (talk) 10:15, 7 May 2017 (UTC)