Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2017 November 9

= November 9 =

Western thought
The article's introduction states: "The terms Western thought and Western values refer to the cultural tradition that traces its origins from the heritage of Greek, Roman, Jewish … as well as Middle Eastern Christianity including the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church." — Now, is this really correct? What about that reference explicitly to Middle Eastern Christianity and, even more, mentioning it in one breath with the Roman (!) Catholic Church (not a Middle Eastern institution at all!) here?--Herfrid (talk) 08:09, 9 November 2017 (UTC)


 * It sounds to me as though the "Middle Eastern" should be omitted, or further explanation given. I am not an expert in this area but I expect that what the author is trying to express is that Western Thought is highly influenced by Christian doctrine, a lot of which originated in the Middle East. An example is the influences of St Paul's teachings on the reformation. -- Q Chris (talk) 08:50, 9 November 2017 (UTC)


 * The word "Christian" was first used in the city of Antioch, but I'm not aware in what sense Christianity is distinctively "middle-eastern" (other than originally splitting off from Judaism)... AnonMoos (talk) 16:56, 9 November 2017 (UTC)


 * This should all just be collapsed to "Christian" or better, "Judeo-Christian" since the Catholic Church is not just the Roman Catholic Church, Protestantism and the settlements after the Thirty Years War are formative in the modern age, and mentioning Orthodox churches specifically gives them a weight they don't really have. For Example, although Russia was Orthodox, Tsar Peter the Great's reign is seen as explicitly Westernizing, not just modernizing. μηδείς (talk) 20:25, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

When and why did Judaism stop practicing polygamy?
When and why did Judaism stop practicing polygamy? It seems to have been prevalent in biblical times but non-existent today. -- Q Chris (talk) 09:32, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Our article on polygamy, on the contrary, reckons that "despite its prevalence in the Hebrew Bible, scholars do not believe that polygyny was commonly practiced in the biblical era because it required a significant amount of wealth". When did it die out?  The same article quotes one scholar as saying that "it is attested among Jews as late as the second century CE".  On the other hand our article on Gershom ben Judah says that he banned polygamy in Jewish religious law around the year 1000, and surely no-one legislates against things that never happen.  One writer says that "polygamy has been countenanced throughout most of history by Judaism and has been in continuing practice among Sephardic Jews, who dwell mainly in Muslim-dominated cultures".   The same source tells me that Israeli law still recognizes the polygamous marriages of immigrant Jews from countries where polygamy is practised.  As for why the practice died out, where it did die out that is, everywhere I look I find it explained as the result of Jewish communities adopting the practices of the societies around them. --Antiquary (talk) 11:25, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Ashkenazi Jews abandoned polygamy 1000 years ago, but it persisted in some Jewish communities into the modern era, especially among the Yemenite Jews, almost all of whom had emigrated to Israel by 1950. There is a small ultra Orthodox group in Israel that is trying to restore polygamy, with support from some prominent rabbis. In defiance of Israeli law, polygamy sanctioned by top rabbis. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  03:07, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The initiative comes from the Sephardi community, as was noted in this comment:

- 92.8.218.14 12:53, 9 November 2017

Anytown, USA, population...
Why do American towns (as portrayed on television and in films, at any rate) put their populations on signs as you enter them? DuncanHill (talk) 19:16, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Googling the subject, this was one of the first things that came up, some theories on another website seven years ago. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:47, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Fozzie, singing: "Movin' right along, Do I see signs of men?"
 * Kermit, singing: "Yes, 'Welcome' on the same post that says 'Come back again'."
 * ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:25, 9 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Googling "town population sign tv tropes" gives plenty of results. Even Elmer, New Jersey, famed for having one stop light and a population of 1,571 as late as 1990 doesn't post the population. μηδείς (talk) 20:07, 9 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Towns with a street grid on their borders probably also don't bother to put the sign at every street. They often have at least a small one without population though. I'm not sure if I've seen the pop at the Lincoln Tunnel. Imagine the biggest towns: Tokyo population 13,513,734. It might be seen as bragging. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:19, 9 November 2017 (UTC)


 * It would also be a problem, given statistically one would expect about 450 deaths due to old age per day in a town that big, not to mention other deaths and births and immigration and emigration. The whole thing is basically a tourist come-on or a media trope nowadays, à la Under the Dome. μηδείς (talk) 20:32, 9 November 2017 (UTC)


 * No; as noted in the thread Medeis linked to, it's just standard practice in some states and some Canadian provinces. It gives a traveler an idea of what services you might find in the town. There are variations in a few states, as well. In Colorado what you expect to see on the sign is the elevation (in feet above sea level), like this or this, and that's useful information too.  In Wyoming you see both, like this.  In Arizona at least sometimes you see the date the place was founded. --69.159.60.147 (talk) 20:41, 9 November 2017 (UTC)


 * In New York State too (yeast of founding). The ones with year of founding I remember look custom-made though (painted wood), not a state-standardized metal sign. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:58, 9 November 2017 (UTC)


 * In Ontario, along Highway 401, the signs list the population and often the number of highway interchanges. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:08, 9 November 2017 (UTC)


 * I have never seen the number of highway interchanges in a settlement on a sign in the US. Maybe some of the overhead signs tell you which exits are Newark or whatever but they don't say "Townsville 3 exits". Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:53, 9 November 2017 (UTC)


 * I don't know what state of the Milky Way this poster is from, but here are examples of such signs in Alabama, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Florida, Idaho, Kentucky, Michigan, Mississippi, New Jersey, North Carolina, Oregon, Virginia, and Washington state. Will that do to be getting on with?  --69.159.60.147 (talk) 08:19, 10 November 2017 (UTC)


 * I don't see Interstates much and live near the center of an extensive commuter rail system so it's mostly what I remember from Greyhound buses. Someone who actually has a driver's license is probably more qualified to know if signs say how many exits are in town. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:52, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Smaller cities along Interstates will often have signs, such as "Punkin Centre next 3 exits." For large cities there's really no point in doing that, especially if the Interstate goes right through the city as they often do. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:25, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Los Angeles 44 exits? Oh and now I recall a next x exits sign.. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 03:56, 14 November 2017 (UTC)


 * You might like this. Alansplodge (talk) 21:54, 9 November 2017 (UTC)


 * I'd love to have been born into population as low as that guy. Unfortunately I'm stuck with pride for a place more suited for the extrovert and/or nature-averse. I've seen the horizon from a window 100 meters above ground and it still looks like an ocean of buildings without an end in sight. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 04:58, 10 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the various answers. I am a little puzzled by the notion that seeing the population will give yo an idea of what services would be available. Presumably if you can see a sign you can also see the town and form a judgement from that! And for the altitude - I see little everyday use for that. DuncanHill (talk) 22:03, 9 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Some of America's urban areas are very low population density (think 1 or 2 thousand people per square mile) and towns often have disproportionately vast city limits that contain large amounts of the surrounding rural area (it depends of course. St Louis has disproportionately small city limits, Houston has 2.3 million in city limits alone and the northwest highway still enters city limits in a rural area beyond suburb range) Also topography and trees could block most of even a pretty low-acreage town from view. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:05, 9 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Different states have different guidelines for what goes on the town signs. In Massachusetts it's just the name of the town and the year it was founded. (Which is also not incredibly useful to passing motorists.) Whereas the Texas ones (page 3-156) have population instead. (I suspect Texas is where the trope comes from. All those western films where the population is in the two digits.)
 * As for the purpose, it seems the biggest reason is city pride, according to this article.
 * But if it's purely for pride, why not just put the number on the paid-for-by-the-city Welcome sign, along with the name of that celebrity that was born in your town?
 * I wonder if it's not influence from the sign-making industry. Replacing those signs every census has to be a steady income for somebody. (There's a legend that the original Massachusetts signs were introduced by a lawmaker whose brother was a sign-maker, but I can't find a cite for that.) ApLundell (talk) 23:17, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Thinking about it, I guess that makes sense. Out east towns are proud of how old they are, but out west they're proud that they're growing. ApLundell (talk) 23:18, 9 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Brag about age much? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 05:08, 10 November 2017 (UTC) Flag of Boston.svg Flag of the Borough of Manhattan.svg Flag_of_New_York_City.svg


 * Locating Bill, Wyoming on Google Maps, there's no sign at all for the town, except on the post office and the store. And there's also a nearby motel. So although this is a town with population in double digits at most, it still has services for the driver. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:35, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Several places in the USA have signs boasting a population of only one, see Buford, Wyoming, Lost Springs, Wyoming and Monowi, Nebraska. Alansplodge (talk) 12:19, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Some of these signs may be commercially sponsored.  I have an idea that a local authority will put up a brown sign to an attraction if someone pays for it.   In Perth, Western Australia there was one reading "You're in 6PR country".   Although our article doesn't mention it, radio stations over there are identified by their callsign, the first digit of the post code (which in WA is 6) followed by two letters ("PR" obviously relates to Perth).   Some signs are changed for aesthetic reasons - in one Essex village the longstanding name of "The Ugley Women's Institute" was changed to "The Women's Institute (Ugley Branch)". 82.14.24.95 (talk) 12:57, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
 * A good joke, but they're unlikely to have such a sign as they meet in the village hall. Here is the actual village sign. Alansplodge (talk) 20:07, 10 November 2017 (UTC)


 * The town I grew up in, formerly the Godwin farm, put up a sign after 2010 saying "founded in 1940" although it was less than half-built (the lot behind my house was empty, and I had to get a tetanus shot from being pierced by a nail) when we moved there in 1972. I suspect the whole thing is a racket for signmakers.  (Followup--isn't there a term for signmaker, like haberdasher for hat maker?) μηδείς (talk) 00:41, 13 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Isn't a hatmaker a milliner? —Tamfang (talk) 02:14, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

A haberdasher is not a hatmaker. In the UK, a haberdashery is a shop selling needles, pins, ribbon and other small items related to sewing, called "notions". In the US, a haberdashery is a upscale men's wear shop, selling business suits, dress shirts and ties, and a haberdasher is the proprietor. The term is somewhat archaic. President Harry Truman was a haberdasher before entering politics. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  02:44, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
 * A hatmaker, especially for women, is a "milliner". The deYoung Museum in San Francisco had a fascinating exhibit earlier this year called Degas, Impressionism and the Paris Millinery Trade featuring many paintings related to hatmaking and women's hat fashion. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  02:51, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The Oxford English Dictionary says:

In the course of the 16th c. the trade seems to have been split into two, those of: ≠a. A dealer in, or maker of, hats and caps, a hatter (obs.): b. A dealer in small articles appertaining to dress, as thread, tape, ribbons, etc. ...

a. 1566 Act 8 Eliz. c.11§3 For the better and truer making of Cappes and Hattes within this Realme.. It shalbe lefull to the Maister and Wardens of the Company of Haberdasshers within the Citie of London.. to [etc.].
 * Yes, almost 500 years ago, haberdashers made and sold hats, among other things, and milliners all lived in what is now France. And web programmers trained pigeons. A lot has changed in English usage on both sides of the pond in half a millennia. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  08:51, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

The Worms of County Durham, Northumberland, and the Scottish Borders
The Lambton Worm, the Laidly Worm of Spindleston Heugh, the Sockburn Worm, and the Worm of Linton all hail from this this area. I am not aware of such worms (you may think of them as a kind of snaky dragon) as a feature of the folklore of any other parts of England. I would like to know if there has been any scholarly work on why this should be. Also, can anyone recommend a good work on the folklore of the area, and have I missed any other worms out? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 22:11, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
 * See also: Lindworm —2606:A000:4C0C:E200:28E4:30FB:E8B3:A1F9 (talk) 02:18, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
 * And there's the Pollard Worm from near Bishop Auckland, Co. Durham. --Antiquary (talk) 11:14, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
 * According to Supernatural North East: Folklore, Myths, Legends and Ghosts (p. 16) by Tony Liddell, "worm" in this context comes from the Old Norse ormr(serpent or dragon). I was thinking that perhaps the worm phenomenon was related to Norse occupation, but our Danelaw artlcle suggests that most of Northumberland remained in English hands. Alansplodge (talk) 12:09, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Well not exactly scholarly! but you might like The Lair of the White Worm (film). Dmcq (talk) 12:23, 10 November 2017 (UTC)


 * "...you may think of them as a kind of snaky dragon", but weren't people thinking of dragons as a kind of big worm?"The dragon slain by Sigemund, like the serpent in Genesis A, is defined in terms of both Level I (wyrm, in Beowulf 886b, 891a and 897b) and Level II (draca in Beowulf 892b). The poet adds other details: the dragon lives “under harne stan” 'under a hoar stone' (887b) suggestive of the Lower World; it is a “wraetlicne wyrm” 'wondrously formed wyrm' (891)44 who guarded the treasure that Sigemund looted (893–97a), when Sigemund killed it, it melted in its own heat (897b). Broad strokes, to be sure, but they differentiate the draca from other species of wyrm... Earl R. Anderson (2003) Folk-Taxonomies in Early English, p. 450."Weren't all the dragons in England, and George's in Libya wyrms?&mdash;eric 17:51, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I was rather expecting to be read in the 21st Century, not the 8th! Yes, the worms of Northumbria do appear to be at the snaky, even eely, end of the scale. DuncanHill (talk) 18:24, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Maybe the Norse and Greek ones couldn't make it over Hadrian's Wall without wings!&mdash;eric 18:53, 10 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Re scholarly work, here is an 1872 theory that these traditions are offshoots of the Beowulf story (see Danelaw for why this story might be more prevalent in the north); the author also considers them part of the general Indo-European story stock. For dragon stories from other parts of Britain see European dragon.
 * Re others: List of legendary creatures by type and List of fictional worms. And that 1872 book also mentions a legend in the Somerville family and a few pages later, other dragon stories such as the Welsh king Morvidus who was eaten by a worm, the medieval poem King Alisaunder, and the adder of Lincoln mentioned in Geoffrey of Monmouth’s History of the Kings of Britain. Taknaran (talk) 19:22, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The modern (late medieval onwards, I'd say at a guess) Western concept of a dragon is generally some variant of "big, bulky, winged lizard/crocodile" (in contrast to the Chinese Dragon which is sort of a snake with other animal parts added). However, the original concept seems to have been much more snake-like.  The word "dragon" itself (and the related "drake") comes from the Greek for "dragon or serpent", and ancient and early medieval pictures of dragons tend to be very serpentine.  Interestingly, Bristol Museum has a couple of Han-era carvings of dragons that to my mind look more similar to Norse or Celtic dragons than the typical Chinese dragon.  (Unfortunately I can't find any photos on-line).  My speculation (totally OR) is that the myths and iconography must have had a common origin, but diverged over time (with the Western dragons getting fat, and the Eastern dragons gaining additional physical and magical traits and generally becoming more benevolent). Iapetus (talk) 10:30, 13 November 2017 (UTC)


 * This article contains a link to an online taxonomy of dragons hosted by the British Library which should be a somewhat scholarly attempt to classify dragons in some sort of systematic way. Hope that is useful!  -- Jayron 32 13:16, 14 November 2017 (UTC)


 * The word wyrm NE "worm" is a native Anglo-Saxon word, directly from Old-English, almost certainly from the PIE verb root *wer- "to turn", and is definitely NOT derived from the Norse cognate ormr. (This wouldn't be the first time I've seen a Native English term like Wednesday attributed to Norse (Odin) to give it an exotic cachet.)  The word dragon comes ultimately through Latin from Greek and is most likely a euphemism (like "bear" for the brown one replacing the original PIE *Hrtkos) meaning "the one that stares" from the Greek δράκων. μηδείς (talk) 02:16, 15 November 2017 (UTC)


 * The Oxford English Dictionary says:

Worm ... sb. Forms ... [OE., wyrm (:-*wurmi-z) ... OS. wurm serpent ... G. wurm ±serpent, worm; also (with a-stem) ON. ormr (for *wormr) serpent (Sw., Norw., Da. orm).

It is cognate with "vermin". 82.13.208.70 (talk) 16:07, 15 November 2017 (UTC)