Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2017 September 4

= September 4 =

Why do some provincial housing societies in Canada require a birth certificate in order to apply for subsidized housing?
The above question.Uncle dan is home (talk) 01:17, 4 September 2017 (UTC)


 * One obvious reason is to establish that they are Canadian. Other reasons might include not allowing a person to apply for multiple subsidized houses under different names, intending to sublet them. StuRat (talk) 01:21, 4 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Obviously not "to establish that they are Canadian". First, it doesn't make sense that they'd require Canadian citizenship; any permanent resident should have the same rights.  Second, a birth certificate proves where you were born, not where you're a citizen of.  You could still be a Canadian if you were born in another country (like me), and if you were born in Canada, you could have renounced your citizenship in favor of that of another country.  I don't know what the right answer is here, or even if the assumption in the question is true, but please don't make suggestions that don't make sense. --69.159.60.147 (talk) 19:36, 4 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Are you certain that permanent residents have the right to subsidized housing in Canada ? I expect that this would raise objections from taxpayers, to partially support non-citizens with their taxes. StuRat (talk) 02:37, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

But couldn't they accept other pieces such as a passport or drivers license?


 * Yes. What of it? Bureaucracy and red tape exist everywhere. Everyone born in Canada should/could have a Canadian birth certificate; only drivers have driver's licenses and not everyone has or needs a passport, so a birth certificate should be the most common ID available. The Society for BC, for example, requires a birth certificate only for each family member born in Canada and has other requirements for foreign-born applicants (and family members). Matt Deres (talk) 02:18, 4 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I should think a passport would prove citizenship, but a driver's license may not. Are non-citizens allowed to have a driver's license ?  And do such driver's licenses state the nationality ? StuRat (talk) 02:38, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Also, if you're not going overseas, you won't need a passport; if you can't drive, you won't need a driving licence. Everyone was born. Alansplodge (talk) 08:57, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why you specified overseas; the US is not overseas from Canada, but they usually require a passport (there are some other documents that work, but they're not easy to get and a birth certificate would only do for a child). I have been advised in the past that, although it is not a 100% requirement de jure, it is practically a de facto requirement to have a passport when entering the US. Matt Deres (talk) 12:53, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Theoretically, we can also drive over the sea to Russia. InedibleHulk (talk) 13:23, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
 * See [//en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/overseas]. While it probably doesn't help that most foreign travel for NZ, Australia and the UK is over the sea, in reality the meaning in British English and those strongly derived from them is commonly just abroad or out of country. You can be sure for example that these will cover travel to China, South Korea, France, Germany or yes even Thailand or if they don't it's nothing to do with it not being technically over the sea from peninsular Malaysia [//www.citibank.com.my/globalbanking/travelling_overseas.htm] [//www.prudential.com.my/en/our-products/products/prumedic-overseas/] [//www.maybank2u.com.my/mbb_info/m2u/public/promoDetail.do?channelId=Personal&cntTypeId=0&cntKey=OB011&programId=OB-OnlineBanking&chCatId=/mbb/Personal] . And no, East Malaysia is not overseas to someone in peninsular Malaysia, whereas Thailand (as said) and Kalimantan are to people in both peninsular and East Malaysia. Nil Einne (talk) 14:32, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
 * See also Overseas Pakistani which includes those living in Afghanistan, India, Tajikistan, Nepal, Turkmenistan etc. Amd Overseas Citizenship of India is available to people holding any passport but a Bangladeshi or Pakistani one under the right circumstance (which don't include living across the sea from India). And to be clear, Pakistan and Bangladesh aren't really excluded because they are not across the sea. In fact our article suggests that the great grandchild of a Pakistani and Bangladeshi citizen who was born in and has only ever lived in the US (and only has US citizenship) would not be eligible for that, whereas someone living in Nepal potentially would be in some circumstances. Nil Einne (talk) 15:06, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Well, I just took a look at my passport and it has my city of birth, which is also on my birth certificate. I don't see why they wouldn't accept a passport as a valid piece of ID then, given that my birth certificate is lost.Uncle dan is home (talk) 09:07, 4 September 2017 (UTC)


 * You can get a new birth certificate...you have to pay for it, but otherwise it's pretty easy. You're in Ontario, right? If so you can order one from Service Ontario. It's handy to have your full, long-form birth certificate in case you need it in the future, although it's a little more expensive. Adam Bishop (talk) 11:24, 4 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I don't know if there's much more we can help you with here. Ultimately we do not make policy for Canadian housing authorities, and it's quite doubtful many of them have published precise reasons why they reject passports. Also I'm not sure if they definitely reject passports. If you really have significant hardship obtaining a new birth certificate but do have a passport, you could try approaching whatever housing authority you're thinking of and explaining your circumstances. Although bureaucracy and red tape can create problems, in some cases it's also because people just don't try and the bureaucrats will be willing and are able to help if there is a good enough reason. (Note that "I can't be arsed or you shouldn't need it", is probably not a good enough reason if they already decided for whatever reason they want a birth certificates. Even if they don't actually have a reason, if whoever wrote the policy said they need birth certificates there's a good chance whatever low level bureaucrat in charge of following it is not going to see a reason to waste their time trying to get an exception for you.) Unless you try you'll never know. Trying in this case probably means going in person and speaking to someone and politely explaining the reasons etc why you're not able to obtain a new birth certificate. Some housing authorities do apparently allow passports (that's in Cornwall, Ontario) and even BC Housing mentioned above does apparently allow passports (and baptismal certificates for at least one other type of application [//www.bchousing.org/publications/SAFER_Application.pdf]. Nil Einne (talk) 14:46, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Passports have a thriving black market in forgery behind them. It is possible to buy a forged passport, and move country. Subsequently it is a high value item, and therefore it cant truly be validated as genuine. I think it is between 7 and 9% are fake, and could be higher in certain locations. Quite a high number. Birth certificates are issued at birth, and cant be used for travel, and generally don't have a thriving black market in forgery behind it. There is some, but not on the scale of passport forgery. Minuscule really. So birth certificates are used as they tend to be valid, i.e. genuine. I think that could be the reason birth certificates are used. Also not everyone has a passport, and everybody has birth certificate. scope_creep (talk) 11:21, 4 September 2017 (UTC)


 * The problem with birth certificates is how to establish that a given one belongs to a given person. They usually lack photographs, which would be about useless anyway, as adults don't resemble themselves much as babies.  Anyone who matches the age and gender and race (if listed) could claim to be that person.  Some later birth certs did add identifying features, like footprints, but that would involve a rather detailed analysis to match those.  (Fingerprints are hard to get from babies.)  StuRat (talk) 13:55, 4 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Does Canada fingerprint government help recipients to prevent "sign up early and sign up often"? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 14:34, 4 September 2017 (UTC)


 * To the OP: The only way to get information to answer this question is to contact the organization requiring the birth certificate directly and ask them why. These yahoos are just throwing shit on the wall to see what sticks.  Ignore them all, and make direct contact with the people who would know.  That is, quite literally, the ONLY way to answer questions such as these.  -- Jayron 32 00:41, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Hear, hear. --69.159.60.147 (talk) 00:59, 5 September 2017 (UTC)