Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2018 August 14

= August 14 =

Clan Swinton
Were the members of the Clan Swinton Catholic or Protestant after Reformation, basically if they were known to be recusanct (I see they are not listed in the list of families of that article but don't know how accurate that is)? KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:54, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Can you narrow down when you mean by after the Reformation – right after? Within 100 years? More? The first person named in the article after 1518 was Sir John Swinton, who doesn’t have his own article or much of an internet footprint. The next, Alexander Swinton born c. 1625, is described in his own article as a “zealous Presbyterian”. 70.67.222.124 (talk) 18:50, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
 * And that zealous Presbyterian was son of another Sir Alexander Swinton, sheriff of Berwickshire, and he was son of Robert Swinton, also sheriff of Berwickshire. Both of the last two represented Berwickshire in Parliament.  Sources:    This isn't my period, but surely it isn't conceivable that a man of those times could have held public office in Scotland if he were a Catholic?  I'm talking here about chiefs of the Clan Swinton, but note that the clan itself is a much wider thing. --Antiquary (talk) 09:40, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Kavebear, remember that recusancy is an English-and-Welsh concept, in which the Anglican church is unquestionably dominant, not a Scottish concept. Before the Glorious Revolution, the situation of Anglicans (what's now the Scottish Episcopal Church) ranged from establishment to nonconformity, based on how consistently Presbyterian or consistently Anglican was the dominant party in the Church.  Nyttend (talk) 12:00, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Although see CATHOLIC RECUSANCY IN SCOTLAND IN THE SIXTEENTH CENTURY. Alansplodge (talk) 15:14, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Hm, thank you for finding that. I'm not particularly familiar with the term (unlike with "Nonconformist"), and since the article is confined to England-and-Wales, I assumed that it didn't appear in Scotland.  Nyttend (talk) 22:41, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Perhaps it was a loanword from across the border - I can only find it used in reference to Catholics, rather than non-Presbyterian Protestants. I also found The laity and the structure of the Catholic Church in early modern Scotland (from p. 231) which gives a detailed overview of post-Reformation Scottish Catholicism, including its revival in several of the more remote clans during the 17th century. Alansplodge (talk) 09:21, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Was this historically accurate?
I don't remember this TV commercial well (it was so long ago) but I think it might've shown that the world was still using horse-drawn buggies, carts or trucks in one of Manhattan's 2 CBDs (for utilitarian purposes) till at least 1928-9. The year is certain cause it showed a skyscraper I recognize that was still under construction in 1928. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:04, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Horse-drawn carriages were still regularly used in North America for the transport of goods until shortly after World War II. Milk-delivery vans were usually horse-powered in that period, for example, so it doesn't sound too far-fetched to me. Someone can probably come up with a better answer, though. Xuxl (talk) 12:44, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Here is an article on the history of horses in New York City. Widespread horse ownership was prevalent until more recently than you'd imagine.  -- Jayron 32 12:50, 15 August 2018 (UTC)


 * "Transport of goods" is a little vague; they were used for short-distance deliveries, often along a fixed route... AnonMoos (talk) 17:32, 15 August 2018 (UTC)


 * They were used by street vendors of fruits and vegetables or cottage cheese: see Street Foods, as well as for other small businesses or movers for example. Neglecting the foreground, to the right of the sidewalk there is one of them, given the crowd possibly a fruit vendor to be seen in the distance in the following set "historic photos from the nyc municipal archives" picture #3. The photograph is dated 1931, location, in the vicinity of the Flatiron Building. -Askedonty (talk) 18:32, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
 * This shouldn't be surprising, because early automobiles were unreliable and kind of a pain. Read about the kind of stuff you had to put up with on, say, a Model T. The main benefits over animals were you didn't need to take care of them as much and they didn't get tired, and were maybe a bit faster on ideal terrain. None of these were big advantages for urban deliveries. Similar to early firearms, which replaced bows as infantry weapons only because they took little training or strength to use. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 09:00, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Another benefit is odor. Eventually a law was probably passed against leaving horse manure on the street which is why modern tourist horse carriages have strategically placed buckets. Whether this happened after World War II or not I don't know. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 09:15, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * In the UK after WW2, horse manure from the reduced but still existing urban working horses was (I believe) rarely a problem, because any deposited would, being an excellent fertilizer and soil conditioner, usually be quickly collected for use in gardens, which a larger proportion of people then than now maintained for growing food as well as ornamentation. Also, in contrast to that of many other species, horse manure does not smell particularly unpleasant (and I do not speak as a horse or any other type of animal owner, merely as someone old enought to have encountered horse manure in town streets as well as country lanes). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.0.130.143 (talk) 21:40, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * A different way of getting up the hill too. As well, kids and their future. I know it because I practised it, you wouldn't sledge the same way if it were horses which were waiting instead of parked cars. --Askedonty (talk) 10:18, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * In London, rag-and-bone men were still collecting scrap metal and old furniture by horse and cart in the 1970s - our article has a photo of one still operating in 2011. Young's Brewery were still delivering beer by horse-drawn brewer's dray in central London until the 1997, claiming that costs were comparable to motorised transport for local use, although I suspect that it had considerable advertising benefits. The horses were retired after several "road rage" incidents by drivers who were stuck behind them. Alansplodge (talk) 10:23, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Grand Assault Equine: Road Rage Edition. And it's competitor, Grand Theft Equine: Riding Under the Influence. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 10:57, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Brewer's dray horses fall victim to road rage: "In one of the worst recent incidents a motorist held up near Clapham Junction removed one of the chocks holding the wheels of the dray and hit one of the horses on the rear with it. The pair of animals galloped unchecked for a mile through heavy traffic into nearby Battersea before they were brought under control". Alansplodge (talk) 12:33, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Wow, that's some road rage. Being arrested must've cost more time than the delay. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:41, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Ah, if only the enraged would take the time for a SWOT analysis before venting their fury... ;-) Alansplodge (talk)
 * Regarding manure and buckets, the pressure of mechanization went smoothly to that regard after WWII. I found in this brain feeder the text of the law regarding horse-drawn carriages in NYC, which require the use of effective catching devices, but without mention of the date of the law. Other passages relate to the mounties, it is said that they have to handle the thing smoothly and the best they can, while the citizen can also give a call to get things cleaned. In Great Britain according to the Liverpool Echo it looks like dog and horses owners are not set on an equal footing. In France like in Switzerland or like in Germany, it's a matter of municipal by-laws: le-maire-face-aux-dejections-chevalines  (f)  and there too, horses are dissociated from pets. Of course, maybe not all dogs should be considered pets (but I will not put the question at the RefDesk) . --Askedonty (talk) 18:09, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Horse-drawn beer delivery is also part of the iconography of Budweiser beer; while they don't do it for economic reasons, their herds of Clydesdales are used as a promotional tool by the brand. -- Jayron 32 11:45, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Faded writing at the top of St. Peter's Square Obelisk (Vatican City)?
Looking at the image of the obelisk, at the very top of the stone part there seems to be some very faded writing. Haven't been able to find any references to it so far. Any ideas? Earl of Arundel (talk) 21:58, 14 August 2018 (UTC)


 * There is a wonderful book, Egyptian Obelisks, by Henry H. Gorringe (1885) that contains a chapter on the Vatican Obelisk, and is available online . It mentions that the obelisk has or had many inscriptions in history, but that aside from the most recent ones at the base, many are faded or completely gone. These include the original dedication of the obelisk to Augustus and Tiberius, allegedly visible on the shaft: "Divo. Caes. Divi. Ivlii. F. Avgvsto. Ti. Caes. Divi. Avg. F. Avgvs. Sacrvm." Near the top was a more recent dedication, reading "Sanctissimae cruci Sixtus V. Pont. Max. consecravit e priore sede avvslvm et Caess. Aug. ac Tib. S. L. ablatum MDLXXXVI." I honestly cannot tell if the inscription you can barely make out in that photo is either of these. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:47, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Oh, I can do even better. Based on this 17th century sketch of the Obelisk, the original dedication is lower on the obelisk, near the pedestal, and parts are barely visible in your image (especially the capital "T"). The text you saw at the top is the most recent dedication. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:54, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
 * You're awesome. :) Thanks so much! Earl of Arundel (talk) 23:10, 14 August 2018 (UTC)