Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2018 December 19

= December 19 =

An alligator in the East Room
I'm trying to establish the "real story" regarding said alligator. The best source that I could find (Margaret Truman) states that it was a gift to Lafayette, acquired prior to his visit to D.C. for two months in 1845, and his alligator resided in the (still unfinished) White House East Room. Semi-reliable sources claim that it was a gift from Lafayette to J.Q. Adams. Of course, both could be true -- one source suggests that it was "regifted". Surely, there must be some mention in the official record. What happened to the alligator when the Marquis left? Did he take it with him? Leave it with Adams as a "gift"? Or, ... (?) Most of what I'm finding seems like circular sourcing -- any reliably sourced references appreciated! --With thanks, 107.15.157.44 (talk) 07:31, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
 * FYI, Lafayette visited in 1824 and 1825, and was in DC during the winter, as the roads were no good for travel. Our article reveals that he was in the DC area from early December to February 23, so Adams had not yet been inaugurated (he was Secretary of State). He also came back at the end of his visit in September. It's possible he was gifted an alligator during his travels in the South and did not seek to take it home.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:38, 19 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Hi, here are two pre-Wikipedia sources. Haven't found one yet about what happened next, but you might search on the name of the ship. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:40, 19 December 2018 (UTC)


 * 2002: Real Life at the White House: Two Hundred Years of Daily Life at America's Most Famous Residence. Page 52. A gift to Lafayette among many received during his tour of the US: "He was showered with gifts--from Indian tomahawks to furniture to a live alligator--that amounted to several tons of cargo. Congress arranged for a warship, the USS Brandywine, to take his largesse back to France. Meanwhile everything was stored in the East Room of the White House--including the alligator."
 * 1963: "The Creation of the President's House" in Records of the Columbia Historical Society, Washington, D.C. Page 37. Again to Lafayette: "Abigail Adams arrived two weeks later [in 1800] and was horrified at the chilly vastness of the President's home. She wrote feelingly to her daughter of her dismay...'There is not a single apartment finished...We have not the least fence, yard, or other convenience, and the great unfinished audience chamber I make a drying room of, to hang up the clothes in.' This audience room...was, of course, today's East Room. This room was also used to quarter the pet alligator presented to Lafayette on the latter's triumphal tour of 1824."
 * P.S. Snopes also found some other preinternet sources, including a historian who searched in vain for primary sources. The earliest reference was in 1888, in a children's magazine. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:45, 19 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the leads -- that'll keep me busy for awhile. —107.15.157.44 (talk) 20:44, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

Update
Re: "circular sourcing", check this out  — More thorough research than I'm able to do, strongly suggests that the entire thing is an apocryphal myth. 107.15.157.44 (talk) 02:31, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

[does that 'ping' work?] – I don't have access to Jstor. Does that passage from the journal article (p. 37) have any attribution? The source certainly should be reliable. Is that from a contemporary account? —107.15.157.44 (talk) 19:09, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Hi 107.15.157.44, unfortunately, the author of the journal article doesn't say where he got the info from, and doesn't even have a bibliography or reference list at the end of the article. He is clearly citing actual letters for the part about Abigail Adams, but he gives no hint about his alligator story source. If it was an actual letter, he probably would have said though - he refers to letters again and again in the rest of the piece and often also gives the dates they were written. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 19:30, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
 * ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 107.15.157.44 (talk) 20:47, 21 December 2018 (UTC)