Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2018 February 17

= February 17 =

Mundane moments in the lives of ordinary people in the new testament
Hi! I'm interested in a period of history which overlaps the time when the new testament was written. Most surviving contemporary accounts of that period are about Great Men and politics, which is all well and good, but I'd like to know more about ordinary people. The new testament has survived and has countless translations and been through more intense scholarship than anything else, so I'm wondering if there's anything to be found there. It's not written by Imperial Roman historians. That makes it interesting. I'm wondering if there's any particular passage I could flip to that would tell me a little story about a real citizen (subject, I suppose) of Rome and what their life felt like. I'm not interested in theological stuff for its own sake. Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C1:8100:900:8CA:15B1:ADFB:DF14 (talk) 18:42, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I am not going to indicate particular passages, except to say that right through the four gospels and the book of Acts there are many stories involving ordinary people - mostly Jews, but some Greeks and Romans as well. Some describe an event, while others are parables using the lives of ordinary people to make a theological point. One example: the Roman soldier who was so concerned for his servant that he went to ask Jesus to heal him: that tells you a lot about the relationship between masters and servants, as well as between Jews and Romans. Wymspen (talk) 19:17, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Zacchaeus is another good example. Alansplodge (talk) 20:38, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Saul of Tarsus (St. Paul) was described as being a Roman Citizen at several points; that status accorded him certain rights which are key in several biblical narratives. We also have examples of Roman soldiers or centurions, for example Cornelius the Centurion or Claudius Lysias, as well as Roman officials such as Pontius Pilate or the Roman Proconsul in Cyprus, Sergius Paulus, mentioned in connection with the sorcerer Elymas (Bar-Jesus).  Those are just a few examples I can remember of Romans and their households which are mentioned in the bible.  -- Jayron 32 13:36, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
 * There are several narratives about Romans in the New Testament (generally brief), but the average Roman citizen in Judea during the New Testament period was not an average inhabitant of Judea, since a Roman citizen was very likely to be part of or closely connected to the Roman imperial government, or to be a merchant etc. Also, by their nature, most ancient texts do not describe in very much detail customs or objects which were taken for granted as part of ordinary everyday life then, no matter how exotic they may seem to us now.  Ancient tombstones sometimes give a brief summary of the lives of ordinary people without much of a literary filter.  You might also look at books such as "Handbook to Life in Ancient Greece" by Lesley Adkins and Roy A. Adkins... AnonMoos (talk) 23:51, 17 February 2018 (UTC)


 * IIRC, Josephus has some passages about life in Judea, focused to some extent on movements that common people would've joined. These movements were as much about theology as politics, though (but then again, the boundaries were a bit more blurry then).  Ian.thomson (talk) 00:26, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
 * We have Ancient Roman cuisine and Food and dining in the Roman Empire. Bus stop (talk) 13:54, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
 * You can learn an awful lot about ordinary people through archaeology, , . 86.169.57.217 (talk) 14:48, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

It depends what you mean by "ordinary people". There are terrific written records that reveal much about the lives of ordinary people (some of the letters of Pliny the younger (check out what he has to say about Regulus) in particular come to mind, some of the works of Cicero, even the wicked pen of Catullus and there's a ton of other stuff you can find in places like Augustan literature (ancient Rome). But mostly the written sources will tell you about the lives of nobles and wealthy people. Cicero himself struggled for being only from a 'lesser' family, albeit still fabulously wealthy and powerful compared to most.

But those people are not really very ordinary. If you want to know about the lives of the masses, the poor and slaves, you'll struggle from written sources. Even the accounts of the military, made up of ordinary freemen, that I've read (eg Tacitus, Julius Caesar) don't really tell you too much about their lives, focusing mainly on tactics and propaganda. You might actually learn more about the lives of their enemies, told disparagingly, than the citizens fighting them.

So it is here that 86's comment really comes into its own. Archaeology tells us quite a bit... and Mary Beard's TV documentaries are pretty good on this if you want an easy accessible way in. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:23, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Btw, I presume you're aware of Pliny the Younger on Christians? Absolutely fascinating. As usual with any kind of historical document, bear in mind the biases... Love him as I do, I'm still of the opinion that Pliny is a grade A arse-licker, social climber and snob, sp do read between the lines whenever you read him. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:28, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

"Cicero himself struggled for being only from a 'lesser' family, albeit still fabulously wealthy and powerful compared to most."

This is something of a misconception. Marcus Tullius Cicero was born into a family of Equites status, and his father was a relatively wealthy resident of Arpinum (a provincial city, whose residents received Roman citizenship in 188 BC). Cicero's main obstacles was that he was not himself from Rome and that he lacked prominent ancestors and familial connections to the Roman aristocracy. He was a novus homo (the first in his family to serve in the Roman Senate, and the first to serve as a consul).

Cicero in part solved his problem by acquiring a reputation as the best lawyer and orator available (he managed to outperform Quintus Hortensius, the previous best lawyer around) and by securing for himself an advantageous marriage. He married Terentia, daughter of an old and powerful family. The marriage came with a dowry of 400,000 sesterces, which allowed him to finance political campaigns. Terentia was apparently a member of the politically prominent gens Terentia, and probably a member of the Terentii Varrones (the wealthiest and most prominent family in the entire gens).

Cicero found himself connected to several prominent politicians, and his services as an orator were in much demand. Politically he was primarily connected to the Optimates faction. They were snobby aristocrats who were opposed to "the ascension of novi homines into Roman politics", but needed Cicero's political services. Unfortunately for Cicero, the Optimates were powerful in the Senate but often lacked sufficient support in the military and the wider populace. He ended in the losing side of several conflicts, and was eventually executed.

We know a lot about Cicero, more than almost any Roman of his era, thanks to his slave (and later freedman) Marcus Tullius Tiro. In an attempt to take dictation for his master, Tiro reportedly invented the Tironian notes (an early form of shorthand, that was in use for 18 centuries.) Tiro both collected vast records of his master's speeches, but he published his former master's collected works. Tiro pretty much ensured that Cicero will never be forgotten. Dimadick (talk) 16:25, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I am not sure what misconception you're clearing up. You seem to be agreeing with me. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 09:16, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
 * He was not poor at all. The trouble was that he lacked prominent ancestry, at a time that the Roman Senate was dominated by a number of "old" aristocratic families. Class discrimination at work. Dimadick (talk) 10:29, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Erm, read my comment again. I wrote that his family was "fabulously wealthy" and from "a 'lesser' family". If we weren't agreeing so hard, you might have some room to disagree with me. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:02, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Obligatory link --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:17, 23 February 2018 (UTC)