Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2018 February 23

= February 23 =

Difference of Female succession of medieval Germany and France

 * Hello. I may use the wrong wording in my question, but here goes:
 * When I examine the lists of the Counties, Duchies and others smaller states in France and Germany during the middle ages, I noticed there where much more women rulers in France than Germany. Why the great difference of numbers?
 * In France, women often inherited counties, baronies and lordships, and governed them in their own right. I am not speaking of the royal throne (I know women could not inherit that because of Salic Law) but rather of women rulers such as Ermengarde, Viscountess of Narbonne and Ida, Countess of Boulogne.
 * In the equivalent German counties and duchies, however, I can find extremely few such women rulers - Uta of Schauenburg are one of the few, but otherwise, most women rulers in Germany seem only to have ruled in the name of a son or husband, not ruling in their own right.
 * Why was there almost no women rulers and title holders in their own right in "Germany", compared to "France"? Was there perhaps some rule in effect in Germany which banned female succession to such titles and lands? Thank you--Aciram (talk) 23:35, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Women could inherit titles, when there was no son - but very few actually ruled. Have a look at Jure uxoris Wymspen (talk) 00:17, 24 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Yes, but my question was: there are many such women in France, but extremely few in Germany, so I wonder why there was such a difference between France and Germany?--Aciram (talk) 01:29, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Because France was not France until later than you think. Salic Law in France really only applied to titles derived from (or later absorbed by and reissued by) the King of France, and more specifically, the royal demesne of France, which for a large part of history consisted of Île-de-France and not much else (these lands were those which specifically were under the direct rule of the Count of Paris/Duke of France, i.e. the lands of the House of Capet at the time Hugh Capet was elected King of the Franks).  The rest of what we think of as France were nominally vassals of the French King, but were basically independent, and local laws held sway there.  This includes places like Auvergne, Burgundy, Provence, Normandy, Brittany, Aquitaine, Flanders, Bearn/Navarre, which you'll notice accounts for most of France.  Many of these places had no local laws forbidding women from inheriting when, say, a man had only daughters.  Thus, you'll find women who were ruling countesses, duchesses, and queens in all of those places.  -- Jayron 32 03:37, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Also, there's serious doubt that even in the case of the Crown of France itself that Salic inheritance law applied except when it became politically expedient for the House of Valois to enforce its claims to the throne of France over the House of Plantagenet after the extinction of the Direct Capetians. The Valois dug up the inheritance laws as justification for their rightful claims, but I'm not sure there's much evidence for their application before the Hundred Years War.  -- Jayron 32 03:41, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Maria Theresa was Archduchess of Austria, Queen of Hungary and Queen of Bohemia by inheritance. Maria Theresa controlled at least four electoral votes to have her husband elected Holy Roman Emperor (King of the Romans). Sleigh (talk) 04:43, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
 * You'll notice, however, that Austria, Hungary, and Bohemia aren't in Germany, however. Also, Maria Theresa had only one vote in the Imperial election, 1745, that of Queen of Bohemia.  The other votes were pledged to her husband under the terms of the Treaty of Füssen, but they were not, strictly speaking, her votes. -- Jayron 32 05:33, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Both Austria and Bohemia were in the Holy Roman Empire in 1740, and Hungary was outside it. Sleigh (talk) 05:38, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, but they were still not Germany. The Holy Roman Empire and Germany were not coterminous entities.  The Kingdom of Germany excluded both Austria and Bohemia, though both were in the Holy Roman Empire.  -- Jayron 32 05:47, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Jayron, are you sure about that? I'm finding it difficult to find a clear statement on the matter, but History of Austria says that Austria was a margravate of Bavaria, and Bavaria was one of the stem duchies. I thought the exclusion of Austria only came about much later, with the rivalry with Prussia and the North German Federation.  Rojomoke (talk) 10:22, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Interesting replies so far, thank you very much - but I still wonder: why was there so few women rulers in the various counties, duchies, margraviates and so fort in present Germany? Was there some kind of Imperial law banning female succession to these small counties and so fort? Because, still - the difference between the great amount of such women rulers within present days France, and present day Germany, are simply so big, that there seem to have to be some kind of rule in then "Germany" that made the women rulers so few compared to present day "France"? I am aware of the fact that France where not really France and Germany not really Germany, but again - why the enormous difference in the amount of such women rulers within present days France, and present day Germany? Was there no reason for this other than random coincidence? (I altered my phrasing so as to make it clear what I meant, hope that's okay!) --Aciram (talk) 12:25, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Hmm... I have to question the premise here... Remember that “Germany” was made up of hundreds of very tiny little states, and it could be that women DID inherit (more often than you think)... however, chroniclers and historians might not have paid much attention to them, because the amount of land involved was small. Contrast this with France, where the various counties and dukedoms were large and compact.  The succession of a woman to a French county or duchy was rare, but extremely noteworthy because the amount of land involved was significant (and thus her succession would be mentioned by more historians and chroniclers). Blueboar (talk) 13:35, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, Blueboar, it is after all my question, so the premise is mine, haha! ^^ Even if you are correct, it still leaves the question: why where the rulers fewer in all the little small German states, than in all the small French states? Because they where large and small states in both "Germany" and "France", and although the neither country was united as they are now, there where still loosely a Kingdom and an Empire, at least officially. There are lists of the rulers of several of those states both here in Wikipedia as well as otherwise, and several of those French states have two or more female rulers, while almost no German equivalent has any woman ruler at all. There are categories such as "Category: 13th-century Women rulers" where they are many French women rulers of both small and larger lands, but almost no German at all. Also the French women rulers of small states are described, and they where several large lands in Germany as well, such as Saxony and Bavaria. So even if you are correct, it still leaves the question: why is the differences so great?--Aciram (talk) 15:42, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I think you miss my point... What I am trying to say is that the differences you see may not be accurate... I am not sure that there actually WERE more women rulers in French history than in German history. There may have been MORE German heiresses than French heiresses... but because of the disparity in the size of their inheritance, the French ones simply MATTERED more in the grand scheme of history, and so they get highlighted by historians (While the German ones remain relatively obscure, and are only discussed by genealogists). Blueboar (talk) 16:48, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

"Maria Theresa was Archduchess of Austria, Queen of Hungary and Queen of Bohemia by inheritance. "

Largely irrelevant here. The Pragmatic Sanction of 1713 opened the way for the Habsburg Monarchy to be inherited by a woman of the house, because by that time the House of Habsburg had few surviving male members. The succession laws of the House had to be changed. The intended heiress was Maria Josepha of Austria (the senior daughter of Joseph I, Holy Roman Emperor), but Charles VI, Holy Roman Emperor eventually reneged on the deal and had his own senior daughter Maria Theresa proclaimed as the new heiress. The disputed succession led to the War of the Austrian Succession (1740–1748), as several European countries refused to recognize Maria Theresa as a legitimate ruler. Dimadick (talk) 14:17, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
 * the Hapsburgs, however, became powerful as a family by finding eligible heiresses and marrying them. ("Leave the waging of wars to others! But you, happy Austria, marry; for the realms which Mars awards to others, Venus transfers to you".). The most notable example of such an heiresse was Mary of Burgundy. Blueboar (talk) 15:16, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I am glad that you can find so much to discuss from my question, but, If I my say so, it is perhaps not so relevant here. Can either of you see an answer to the question I posted? Why such an enormous difference between the amount of women rulers of lands in France and Germany? --Aciram (talk) 15:42, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I don’t think there was such an “enormous difference”. In both regions, the laws gave precidence to male heirs, but women occasionally inherited when no male heirs were available.  Mary of Burgundy is a good example of it happening in a German state. Blueboar (talk) 18:31, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Hildegard of Bingen was pretty powerful for her time. But not a worldly ruler. Anyway, befor 1815 there was no "Germany" so its a bit unfair to compare it to France that has a history all back to 486. However Catherine the Great was actually German and so is the whole english House of Windsor which was (and informally still is) House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha until World War I. Also the famous Empress Elisabeth of Austria was German. The last named probably cant be counter under "medieval" anymore but then again, there was no Germany in the medieval. It was likely much harder to be the ruler of one of the small Kingdoms that existed in the area now called Germany. Medieval was anarchy. A very vicious, deadly time even for warproven Kings. A Woman had to be extra powerful to keep her throne and that simply could not work in all these little kingdoms in medieval "Germany". Catherine the Great and the many english Queens are indisputable prove that Women could rule big, powerful Kingdoms very long and successful. --Kharon (talk) 19:23, 24 February 2018 (UTC)


 * "Can either of you see an answer to the question I posted? Why such an enormous difference between the amount of women rulers of lands in France and Germany?" Prior to the Pragmatic Sanction of 1713, the succession rules of the Habsburgs explicitly excluded potential heirs. Which was why Maria Theresa's succession was disputed in the first place. Several other German houses apparently had similar rules, and some of them still do. Per the Line of succession to the former Bavarian throne, the female members of the House of Wittelsbach are excluded from the succession:


 * "The succession is determined by Article 2 of Title 2 of the 1818 Constitution of the Kingdom of Bavaria, which states "The crown is hereditary among the male descendants of the royal house according to the law of primogeniture and the agnatic lineal succession."
 * You know the drill by now: agnatic primogeniture and its rules: "Females and female-line descendants are excluded from succession." Dimadick (talk) 20:36, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Until they take over and change the rules. --Kharon (talk) 04:12, 27 February 2018 (UTC)