Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2018 February 27

= February 27 =

German to English translation
Can you please translate the following:

[a]ngesichts der in vielen zentralen Fragen letztlich dann doch dürftigen Quellenlage

Thanks. scope_creep (talk) 11:38, 27 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Roughly: "... in view of the sourcing, which for many central issues turned out to be slim after all". Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:15, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
 * It looks like a partial quote from an academic paper. If that is the case, it means that the questions raised in the research paper were not answered in the source material. 209.149.113.5 (talk) 13:30, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. This is the article Hans Globke scope_creep (talk) 13:36, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
 * In the future, if you need translations and google translate doesn't suffice, questions of this sort probably belong on the languages refdesk rather than here. Eliyohub (talk) 14:45, 27 February 2018 (UTC)


 * or at wikt:Wiktionary:Translation_requests. —Tamfang (talk) 07:14, 4 March 2018 (UTC)


 * This is less a question on de>en translation but a (speculative / loaded) interpretation relating to the 3rd Reich / H Globke / denazification / chancellor K Adenauer. As such, the humanities desk seems more appropriate.  --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:00, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Also I dont get decent translations there. The best translation I receive are on this desk. scope_creep (talk) 16:13, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

MPs - often threatened. But seldom actually attacked
I gather that it is not uncommon for MPs, in many democratic countries, to receive threatening communications (email, phone calls, whatever) from people who have a bone to chew with something they've done, or are simply mentally ill.

Taking that into account, it strikes me how exceptionally rare actual acts of violence on parliamentarians are.

Yes, we had Gabrielle Giffords shot; but I remember it being quoted then that in all the history of the U.S. since its founding in 1776, I think a grand total of seven(?) Senators or Congresswomen had ever been shot, including non-fatal shootings (and two of those were shot in a duel with each other!) - and this, in a country awash with guns.

In Britain likewise, there was the Murder of Jo Cox, and the stabbing of Stephen Timms. Aside from these two, once again, I am hard-pressed to remember reading of any serious attempts on the life of an MP, despite the exhortations of ISIS to follow Roshonara Choudhrys example. (I'm putting aside attacks by organized Irish Republican paramilitary groups, since they're of a totally different nature from the aggrieved or disturbed individuals I'm thinking of).

In my own country, there has been a grand total of ONE political assassination since the arrival of Europeans - that of John Newman (Australian politician). (The other MPs who were killed were for reasons unrelated to their political offices).

So, in a nutshell, my question boils down to this: given how many enemies politicians make (and perhaps given how disturbed some of these enemies are), how come serious actual attempts to harm them are so exceedingly rare? Eliyohub (talk) 14:44, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Questions that begin with the prompt "why" or "how come" are not really answerable in this forum. We can provide you with references to published data or accounts of political assassinations.  However, it looks like you've found much of that already.  Questions that begin with "how come", as you have done here, are basically a prompt for speculation.  We shouldn't engage in that here.  You're bound to mostly get answers that involve people giving their personal opinions, which are worthless.  But they will still do so.  -- Jayron 32 15:17, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
 * By the way, your premise is demonstratedly wrong for the U.S. at least. In U.S. history, 14 U.S. Congressmen and Senators have been killed in office; there have been 12,244 people who have served in Congress in either house.  14/12244 is a murder rate of 112 per 100,000.  According to Crime in the United States, the murder rate in the U.S. is 5.3 per 100,000 as of 2016.  While that number may go up and down over time, that still means as a rough approximation you are 20 times more likely to be murdered as a member of Congress than someone who isn't.  So, your perception that legislators are somehow less likely to be victims of violence is demonstratedly wrong.  They are far more likely to be victims of violence than the average person; at least in the U.S.  -- Jayron 32 15:28, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Possible apples and oranges? If the 5.3 murders per 100 000 people is per year (which seems more probable than over an entire lifetime), the the correct comparator would be numbers of elected representatives murdered in any given year. Each one serves for more than a year but less than a lifetime. In order to gain a larger data set, one might consider all the state-level politicians as well as the federal ones. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 16:03, 27 February 2018 (UTC)


 * (ec)I remember both Airey Neave and Ian Gow being murdered by Irish terrorists. I also remember Louis Mountbatten's murder by the IRA (not an MP, but his career included political roles). We have Category:Assassinated politicians. DuncanHill (talk) 15:32, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't see why you would exclude Irish terrorists but include far-right terrorists, like the murderer of Jo Cox. DuncanHill (talk) 15:33, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Loads of people get threats, not just politicians. Managers quite often get threats and at the other end it is practically part of life in some poor areas. I think xkcd: Self-Driving Issues explains why there aren't many actual murders. Most people just aren't murderers. Dmcq (talk) 17:42, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
 * One British Prime Minister was assassinated - Spencer Perceval in 1812. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  18:52, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

"By the way, your premise is demonstratedly wrong for the U.S. at least. In U.S. history, 14 U.S. Congressmen and Senators have been killed in office; there have been 12,244 people who have served in Congress in either house. 14/12244 is a murder rate of 112 per 100,000. According to Crime in the United States, the murder rate in the U.S. is 5.3 per 100,000 as of 2016. While that number may go up and down over time, that still means as a rough approximation you are 20 times more likely to be murdered as a member of Congress than someone who isn't. "

Some of the 14 killed Congressmen were not actually murdered:
 * John Gallagher Montgomery and John A. Quitman were victims of the so-called "National Hotel disease", apparently a mass poisoning event that affected customers of the National Hotel. It was never determined whether the poisoning was accidental or intentional.
 * Edward Dickinson Baker was killed in action, while leading troops in the Battle of Ball's Bluff (1861). He is "the only sitting U.S. senator ever to be killed in a military engagement."
 * John M. Pinckney was killed in a riot in Hempstead, Texas, when the riot turned into a confused gunfight.
 * Larry McDonald was a passenger in Korean Air Lines Flight 007, which violated Soviet airspace and was shot down by Soviet Air Forces. The Soviets reportedly thought that the Korean airliner was an U.S. spy plane.

In Greece, threats of violence or assassination attempts on politicians are far from rare, but successful assassinations are indeed rare. Our Category:Assassinated Greek politicians covers 7 of the most famous assassinations. The most recent case was Pavlos Bakoyannis (d. 1989) who was assassinated by Revolutionary Organization 17 November (an urban guerrilla organization). Dimadick (talk) 15:08, 28 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Interesting Dimadick, that you don't count probable poisonings, actual and possible acts of war, rioting, and so forth as acts of criminal violence. In any case, the conclusion that serving as a politician is risky stands. μηδείς (talk) 04:18, 1 March 2018 (UTC)


 * See also List of serving British MPs who were assassinated which lists eight MPs, six of whom were dispatched by Irish terrorists (or freedom fighters, depending on your viewpoint). Alansplodge (talk) 12:59, 1 March 2018 (UTC)


 * I don't see where Dimadick said anything about those not being act of criminal violence. They only said they were not murders. This was relevant because Jayron32 was comparing the 14/12244 killings to the 5.3 per 100,000 murder rate in the US. If any of these killings wouldn't have shown up in the murder rate, then you aren't comparing like for like. If you want to include other acts of criminal violence that resulted in a death, you should also include the rate for these in the US as well for a fair comparison. Of course if Jayron32 only wanted to set an upper bound, the fact that the actual rate appears to be lower wouldn't matter. There are also other complexities (beyond those already raised in other posts) like whether it's fair to compare the current murder rate to the murder rate for members of Congress of all time considering that the various things that have changed (like what counts as a murder). Nil Einne (talk) 01:11, 2 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Another "see also": Category:Assassinated politicians by nationality. It does seem to be a riskier business than minding one's own business, but difficult to quantify in any meaningful way. Alansplodge (talk) 15:39, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Check also Category:Assassinated heads of government and Category:Assassinated heads of state. The old tale of the Sword of Damocles warns of "imminent and ever-present peril faced by those in positions of power." Some things do not seem to change as the millennia pass. Dimadick (talk) 18:28, 2 March 2018 (UTC)