Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2018 July 13

= July 13 =

Type of fallacy or something similar
A long time ago, I read an article that described something similar to this: "An indigenous individual from a remote village is introduced for the first time to a stove. They are told that it heats food. They proceed to ask how it works and are told it operates by 'Sherman's principle of thermodynamics' [(can't remember the name of the principle so made that part up)]" As they are unlikely to understand that concept being from a society unaware of stoves, the answer is considered faulty. However, it is possible that they have read a lot of books or been educated on the matter yet never actually seen a stove; I think the article stated something like "it is not quite a formal/informal fallacy [for those reasons]" or something along those lines. Cannot relocate the page, despite countless attempts. Any ideas about what I might be looking for? — Godsy (TALK CONT ) 02:58, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Early Chinese banks
One type of early Chinese bank was the qianzhuang. Our article describes its functions as "conducting local money exchange, issuing cash notes, exchanging bills and notes, and discounting for the local business community". I'm not clear from description what these functions are except for discounting, which I would guess is a loan to a business secured by accounts receivable that is assigned to the bank. What would be the modern banking equivalents? Muzzleflash (talk) 14:38, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Money exchange is the same today as it was then: what I’ve got isn’t accepted here, but the bank will (for a modest fee) exchange it into something locals will accept. Issuing cash notes might be akin to issuing bonds (IOUs). Exchanging bills and notes … can you give me five tens for this fifty dollar note? DOR (HK) (talk) 17:03, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Discounting means giving someone immediate cash for an indebtedness, a promise to pay a given amount at a time certain, they hold. The discount represents time value of money, the credit etc risk and profit.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:29, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * exchanging bills or notes I have a note of hand (unbacked cheque / iou) redeemable for silver from Rich Noble or Distant Bank for lots of money. Will you change it in to money I can actually use? Local money in units I can spend buying fish or settling accounts with tradesmen?  I have a bill drawable for silver / script cash / goods due on this date in this city. Will you give me real money? Discount I will give you a note worth $100 on Tuesday for $90 silver now, a discount of 10%. Ie ten of those dollars are dis (not) counted. Fifelfoo (talk) 08:16, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Oldest circulating currency by emission year
Which modern currencies (inc. coins) in circulation have the oldest year of emission? I've recently got a circulating 10-grosz coin from 1993, but not sure whether it's among the oldest. 212.180.235.46 (talk) 21:16, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I would say the US Indian Head cent back to 1864 and the Liberty Head nickel from 1883. Coins older than that would have different specifications. The only other 19th century currency you might encounter is 10 or 20 rappen Swiss pieces (back to 1883, I think).--Wehwalt (talk) 21:25, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I mean oldest samples still in circulation. Are those Head cents and nickels still circulating? 212.180.235.46 (talk) 21:31, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * There are not many, but I've known coin dealers to spend them, to promote the hobby and because in poor condition they may not have value above face value. If you don't like those, then the Lincoln cent goes back to 1909.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:37, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I found a 1930s era US silver dime (10 cents) in my pocket change last year. I got very excited... until I realized that it was in very poor condition, and not at all rare. Numismatic value was about 25 cents... and the “melt down” value of the silver was about the same. Decided not to bother, and put it back in circulation. (ie I spent it) Blueboar (talk) 22:12, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I wonder how many hundreds (or thousands) of other persons have gone through your same experience? It's too bad there's no practical way to have a Where's George? for coins. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:49, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Baseball Bugs, two years ago I opened a roll of pennies from the bank and found an Indian-head cent. Nyttend (talk) 02:11, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Excellent. I hope you hung onto it. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:15, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

I just now went through several dollars of U.S. pennies, nickels, and dimes received in pocket change (eventually to be fed into the bank's coin-counting machine), and the only thing of interest I noticed was a 1948 dime. I paid a lot of attention to pocket change in the early 1970s, and at that time it wasn't worthwhile to look at dimes and quarters, since almost all pre-1965 coins in those denominations had disappeared from circulation due to silver content. But it wasn't too uncommon to find "wheat ear" pennies (from before 1959, when the Lincoln Memorial started being placed on the back of the coin), WW2 zinc pennies, and even pre-1938 "Indian head" nickels. I don't remember what the earliest-dated coin I found was, but probably very few pre-1930s coins were circulating then... AnonMoos (talk) 06:53, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I think the Swiss 10 and 20 rappen pieces are the oldest design still being struck for a coin which was not precious metal, and it is at least plausible you could find one from the 19th century without it quickly being pulled from circulation. Only in the US, Switzerland and Canada could you find a circulating coin from before WWII.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:05, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Interesting. Is there a source or list explaining that US, Canada and Switzerland have the oldest coins?  Dragons flight (talk) 09:57, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Don't know of any such source, but it stands to reason that many countries wouldn't have such old coins still in use. Between British decimalization, the dollarization of Australia and New Zealand, the introduction of the Euro, breakup of the Soviet Union, and redenomination or demonetization of many currencies, many older bills and coins have no value as media of exchange, only as collectibles. --Khajidha (talk) 11:44, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
 * In Australia, the two shilling, one shilling and sixpenny coins had, and still have, direct equivalents of the same size among the decimal coins. Unless there was legislation saying the old coins couldn't be used, I'm guessing they would still be legal tender. HiLo48 (talk) 00:21, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
 * They are legal tender but they do not circulate, see here. For one thing, all of the coins you mention are silver and if spent would not circulate long. All US coins back to 1793 are legal tender, but most don't circulate. The OP asked about coins in circulation.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:13, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
 * HiLo48 was responding to my "no value as media of exchange". I knew the older Australian coins had continued to be used for a while, but was under the (wrong) impression that they had been demonetized in the interim. --Khajidha (talk) 12:32, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I semi-researched it a few years ago, but I don't know of any source.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:09, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Sorting through a few hundred coins in my Swiss spare change box, I found a 1939 20-rappen, a 1943 20-rappen, a 1951 10-rappen, three 20-rappen pieces from the 1950s, and more than a dozen coins from the 1960s in various denominations from 10-rappen to 2 Franks. Dragons flight (talk) 08:28, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I have occasion to open numerous rolls of US coins, and a few times a year I will find an old coin in good shape. If I find a 1930s silver dime, a 1940s steel cent or a 1930s nickel without much wear, I expect it is because someone found an ancestor’s coin collection (regardless whether in albums or in a cigar box) and unwisely took the coins to the bank to trade them in for paper money. This theory is supported by the fact that a roll of coins with one from the 1930’s or 40’s is likely to have a couple more. US coins from before 1965 when they switched to non-silver for dimes and quarters are exceedingly rare. I would estimate one in five or ten thousand based on how often I find one in a roll of coins. So when I find two in a roll it makes me think I’m seeing the result of taking a coin collection to the counting machine where album mates are likely to wind up in the same roll. Edison (talk) 15:39, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I've found a few 1910s US cents in my pocket change over the years. The cent's face and weight have remained constant since 1909, and while some people (including me) will remove a wheat penny from circulation upon discovering it, they're not removed so frequently that extremely old ones can stay in circulation.  Nyttend (talk) 02:11, 17 July 2018 (UTC)