Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2018 July 23

= July 23 =

Is news media in the USA becoming more opinionated?
Is news media in the USA becoming more opinionated? Nocturnalnow (talk) 03:06, 23 July 2018 (UTC)


 * In my opinion "news media" is too broad a term to allow any general conclusion. It's a bit like asking "Is food getting worse?" Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 03:51, 23 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Food seems a bit complementary, implies fit for consumption. The US press in a general sense has a long and [dis]respectable history of highest and lowest standards. Opinion has been mixed with hard news continuously. Recently, however, topical and political diversity in the editorial stance of outlets has replaced a long period of geographic diversity. Based on your personal Overton window much of this may look like opinion, in comparison to right minded persons like yourself who read only hard reporting. While there is a lot of yellow sensationalism, advertorial, fringe politics and topical specialisation it still possible to readily locate outlets with high standards that clearly differentiate reporting and opinion. Fifelfoo (talk) 06:12, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Do those outlets with high standards make any money? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:14, 23 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Compared to when? The news media in early 1800s was extremely opinionated - lot more than it is today.  The news media in the late 1900s was less opinionated than it is today. Blueboar (talk) 10:19, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
 * "The news media in the late 1900s was less opinionated than it is today." How do you know? Are you reading newspapers from the Edwardian era (1901 to 1910)? Dimadick (talk) 00:28, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
 * "Late 1900s" would mean rather 1980s-1990s. Anyway, during much of the 19th century, U.S. newspapers tended to have an explicit party affiliation... AnonMoos (talk) 09:53, 24 July 2018 (UTC)


 * We in Australia sent you Rupert Murdoch. I'm sure that has helped a lot. HiLo48 (talk) 03:18, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Something Chicago columnist Mike Royko once said: "No self-respecting fish would be wrapped in a Rupert Murdoch newspaper." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:39, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Looking for a quote from José Saramago's "The Gospel According to Jesus Christ"
I remember reading this book some years ago and one part stuck with me the most. It's a quote in reference to a lightning storm that's arriving. He describes it as a conflict between earth and the heavens, and describes the rain as a shield.

I would love to know the full paragraph or two that mentions this if anyone can help. Thank you.

2001:44C8:4403:6144:1:2:2AAF:1A6A (talk) 08:23, 23 July 2018 (UTC)


 * It's here: . 86.133.26.146 (talk) 10:07, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Wow, thank you so much for that! I'm incredibly grateful.

2001:44C8:4403:6144:1:2:2AAF:1A6A (talk) 11:51, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Can a marriage like Romeo and Juliet occur in the modern day?
Nowadays, if a 14-year-old and a 15-year-old want to get married, and they know everyone will disapprove of the relationship, then can they ask a friar or a member of the church to marry them? SSS (talk) 23:09, 23 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Well, Juliet is 13, since Shakespeare tells us she is "not yet" 14. Such a marriage without parental consent wouldn't be legal in the U.S. today, no matter what the church in question might believe. There are of course many countries where child marriages are legal. - Nunh-huh 23:29, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Absolutely not, by modern Greek standards. Getting married (at any age) involves plenty of paperwork and the full knowledge of the civil authorities. See also: https://smartexpat.com/greece/how-to-guides/family/weddings-civil-partnerships/marriage-partnerships


 * "Since 1982, both civil and religious marriage ceremonies have been recognised by Greek law. Foreign nationals (even those not resident in Greece) can marry in Greece, as long as they allow sufficient time for the local authorities to receive and process their application. This includes supplying all the necessary documentation required for a marriage licence. The process takes a minimum of eight working days but there are other administrative requirements prior to submitting the application which may take much longer to complete."
 * "Foreign nationals in Greece may be married in a civil ceremony performed by a mayor, in a religious ceremony, or both. Foreign nationals do not need to be Greek residents, however, if either party is a resident of Greece and is required to have a residence permit (non-EU citizens), they must possess a valid residence permit in order to be married. Civil ceremonies may be performed in any location, with the permission of the local mayor."
 * "The legal minimum age for marriage in Greece is 18 years for both men and women. Those younger than 18 must obtain permission from the courts in order to marry." Dimadick (talk) 00:36, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I suppose the operative law should be Italy, where 18 is the marriage age, lowered to 16 with court approval. - Nunh-huh 00:41, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Wasn't Romeo like 20 or something? Talk about creepy. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 01:26, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Juliet's age is given rather precisely ("a fortnight and odd days" short of 14), but Romeo is described only as a "youth." In the source for Romeo and Juliet, which was The Tragical History of Romeus and Juliet by Arthur Brooke, Juliet was 16. Various reasons have been given for why Shakespeare trimmed three years from her age but no one really knows. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 03:46, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
 * "Come Lammas-eve at night shall she be seventeen" doesn't work as well. Since the Nurse uses the word "fourteen" four times close together, and uses it twice to conclude lines and once in a joke, my personal thought is that Shakespeare gave her the age-to-be that worked best for his textual purposes.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:37, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
 * , it wouldn't have seemed like that in those days. Youthful brides were not uncommon, as you can tell from royal weddings. Marie Antoinette was 14 when she married a century or so after Shakespeare's time. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:11, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Also, neither a friar nor a member of the church can, as such, marry anyone at all. They need to be an ordained priest (in whatever church) as well. --Antiquary (talk) 09:29, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Many (though not all) friars are also ordained priests, for example the majority of Dominican friars are priests, as are the majority of Franciscans. -- Jayron 32 10:42, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
 * For clarity we aren't referring to the situation in Greece or Italy? If so, in some countries like NZ, a marriage celebrant doesn't have to be an ordained priest. They can be anyone provided they meet certain requirements none of which really relate to ordination (well the community one could in some cases) and successfully go through the application process [//www.govt.nz/organisations/births-deaths-and-marriages/information-for-marriage-celebrants/become-a-marriage-celebrant/#how-to-become-a-celebrant] Marriage in New Zealand. Note that organisational celebrants require the support of the organisation. And for the marriage to be recognised by 'whatever church' or at least to be performed in that church, maybe the person will have to be an organisational celebrant from that church but I'm not sure if this is always the case. And likewise although maybe that approval will often only be given to ordained priests, I doubt this is always the case. For example churches which believe in Universal priesthood may not require an ordained priest, assuming they even have such a thing as "ordained". (Although for one of the more well known ones i.e. the Quakers, at least per the above Wikipedia article NZ still allows their marriages to be performed without a celebrant according to the Quaker wedding traditions.) Probably in most cases being a friar would conflict with becoming a celebrant without being ordained, but I'm fairly sure quite a few celebrants are members of some church.  To be clear, going around asking random people to marry you isn't likely to work. Instead you'd find celebrant, probably via the internet since it's 2018. And when the celebrant finds out one of the parties is 13, they are likely to immediately say no. Maybe even report it to someone. If one of the parties is 16 or 17, they'd also say no if the "everyone will disprove of the relationship" since it needs parental consent. Above that age, they may have some concerns but I suspect provided it's clear that both parties are fully willing and no one is being forced they'd perform it. (Although you'd need to dig up 2 witnesses from somewhere.)  Of course if you just want to get married and don't care about anything else, there is no need to go through the hassle of finding a celebrant. You'd just to to the registry office [//www.govt.nz/browse/family-and-whanau/getting-married/get-a-marriage-licence/]  Nil Einne (talk) 16:04, 24 July 2018 (UTC)


 * We have an article called Marriageable age. Whether you're talking about Italy, where the play is set, or the UK, where it was written, the law is the same: participants must be 18 years of age (or 16 with parental or court consent). Matt Deres (talk) 13:01, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
 * In Scotland one can marry at 16 without either parental or court permission, and before 1929 at 12 for girls and 14 for boys. DuncanHill (talk) 15:45, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Related question: If two families in India agree to wed their children together in an arranged marriage, but one family moves to the UK, then what are the laws in the UK that handle international arranged marriages? SSS (talk) 20:40, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I can't prove a negative, but I'm certain there are no laws about arranged marriages in the UK, whether or not there's an international angle. Forced marriage would be a different kettle of worms. HenryFlower 09:25, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Girls from the Indian sub-continent resident in Britain worry that when when their parents take them back home during the summer holiday they may be subject to a forced marriage.  A school in Bradford advises them to place a spoon in their underwear.   At the airport this triggers the metal detector.   The girl then has the opportunity to discuss her concerns with a security officer in private. 86.133.26.146 (talk) 12:19, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Our article Arranged marriage mentions how there are concerns over some international arranged marriages in the UK being sham marriages intended solely to obtain legal UK residency. (Similar to concerns over so called Green card marriage in the US.) That wouldn't make much sense if arranged marriages themselves were illegal. And it's quite likely sources like [//www.childline.org.uk/info-advice/bullying-abuse-safety/crime-law/forced-marriage/#3] would note if arranged marriages themselves were illegal. Note also, while it is possible that arranged marriages would be illegal throughout the UK, it is also technically possible (but I'm fairly sure it's not) and probably more likely (since marriages are one thing that do vary) that they would differ between England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. See also [//www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-43376355]. Nil Einne (talk) 17:25, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Apparently child marriage is possible in the USA. https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2018/feb/06/it-put-an-end-to-my-childhood-the-hidden-scandal-of-us-child-marriage "... child marriage is not a thing of the past in the US: almost 250,000 children were married there between 2000 and 2010, some of them as young as 10. “Almost all were girls married to adult men,...”" This news article relates to an ongoing campaign to try to stop the practice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.48.15.246 (talk) 16:39, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
 * That article [neither neutral nor secondary; it's fundamentally an opinion piece] is using "children" in a legal sense, i.e. all minors; elementary-school students marrying with parental permission is quite different from 17-year-old Italians marrying with a court's permission, but this article includes both of them, judging by its frequent references to "under 18". Finally, SuperSuperSmarty, remember that the modern day included Shakespeare's era, so the references to early modern figures like Marie Antoinette are answers to your question.  Nyttend (talk) 12:26, 27 July 2018 (UTC)