Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2018 July 4

= July 4 =

Painters who were also Royalty, Nobility, or Aristocracy
I'm looking for a list of people who were members of the royal, noble, or aristocratic social class and who were also painters. A Wikipedia list article or a Wikimedia Commons category would be nice. I've searched myself but haven't been able to find any such lists or articles. --87.105.138.155 (talk) 10:24, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, there's Charles, Prince of Wales, described in the article as "a keen and accomplished watercolourist" (opinions on the latter may vary). --Viennese Waltz 10:31, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Petscan is a useful tool for queries like this as it finds Wikipedia articles in more than one category. In this case, combining the categories "British royalty" and "British painters" with a depth of 3, for example, returns Margaret of York, Princess Patricia of Connaught and Princess Louise, Duchess of Argyll as well as Charles. --Viennese Waltz 10:46, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
 * That's a very useful tool I hadn't heard of! Thank you for that! --87.105.138.155 (talk) 11:06, 4 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Henri de Toulouse-Lautrec, Prince Eugen, Duke of Närke. Sofonisba Anguissola and her sister Lucia came from minor nobility. If you want to add another aristocrat mainly known for something else (like the ones in earlier replies), you have Winston S. Churchill (grandson of a duke). There are probably a large number of painters who came from a bourgeois background but became knighted or ennobled during their lifetime, such as Peter Paul Rubens (the Rubens family is described as noble here, but seems to be better described as some kind of urban patricians before the generation of the artist) or Anthony van Dyck. --Hegvald (talk) 10:50, 4 July 2018 (UTC)


 * George W. Bush, if he counts as American aristocracy (or as a painter...) Adam Bishop (talk) 12:47, 4 July 2018 (UTC)


 * A 2014 exhibition at Windsor Castle called Royal Paintbox - Royal Artists Past and Present "works by King George III and his children, Queen Victoria and Prince Albert and their children, King Edward VII, Queen Alexandra, HRH The Duke of Edinburgh and HM The Queen" as well as the Prince of Wales mentioned above. Alansplodge (talk) 12:51, 4 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Robert Baden-Powell, 1st Baron Baden-Powell was "a consummate artist" according to our article (see Drawings, paintings, and sculptures). He wasn't of aristocratic stock but was ennobled in 1921. Some examples of his work. Alansplodge (talk) 13:00, 4 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Prince Eugen "came from minor nobility" in the sense that his father was a king of Sweden; perhaps a minor king? —Tamfang (talk) 06:26, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Practically all prewar Polish painters (Nikifor Krynicki being the only exception I can think of) were noblemen. — Kpalion(talk) 13:21, 4 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Queen Margrethe of Denmark holds regular art shows and illustrated the Danish edition of Lord of the Rings. 70.67.222.124 (talk) 14:07, 4 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Prince Eugen, Duke of Närke. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:59, 4 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Good, but Hegvald beat you to that one. One more: "Maharaja Ravi Varma was admired for his painting skills and was very well versed in oil painting." --Antiquary (talk) 17:07, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Whoops, so he did. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:10, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
 * "Emperor Huizong was a great painter, poet, and calligrapher." --Antiquary (talk) 17:55, 4 July 2018 (UTC)


 * More non-European examples: Bhawanrao Shriniwasrao Pant Pratinidhi, raja of the princely state of Aundh. Amrita Sher-Gil, daughter of a Sikh aristocrat. Princess Kaiulani of Hawaii, whose "few surviving paintings demonstrate considerable talent." And the Xuande Emperor, "known as an accomplished painter, particularly skilled at painting animals." All these articles include samples of their painting. 70.67.222.124 (talk) 18:16, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Also Emperor Huizong of Song: "He wrote poems of his own, was known as an avid painter, created his own calligraphy style, had interests in architecture and garden design".
 * In Japan, the Emperor Go-Yōzei: "Textual references in fact support the conclusion that Go-Yozei was a skillful artist". Art and Palace Politics in Early Modern Japan, 1580s-1680s (p. 77) edited by Elizabeth Lillehoj.  Alansplodge (talk) 22:51, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Marie of Romania was pretty handy with a paintbrush. She worked beside the artisans decorating her palace at Pelișor. (Also designed a lot of her own furniture for Cotroceni Palace.) - Jmabel &#124; Talk Jmabel &#124; Talk 04:52, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

People born in countries foreign to their heritage
How do we describe people who are born away from their usual home?

The page in question is Julieta Venegas. While we're not yet at an edit war, it's getting close.

Her parents are Mexican, she is probably the most famous living person from Tijuana. But she was born in California, so her article has said at various times "Mexican", "Mexican American", "American-born Mexican" and probably others.

Is there a preferred way to describe this situation? Is everyone born in the US automatically "American" or "-American"? Does this apply to all countries? Can there/is there/should there be a Wikipedia house style?

Fuddle (talk) 19:28, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
 * See Hyphenated American. Except for pure blooded Native Americans, anyone born in America was born in a country "foreign to their heritage."  Manual_of_Style/Biography says In most modern-day cases this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable. Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.  By merit of the fact that she was born in the US (and I assume is still a US citizen), it should be "American" unless the overwhelming majority of sources emphasize "Mexican-American."  Ian.thomson (talk) 19:37, 4 July 2018 (UTC)


 * while you may get some answers here (and I see Ian has while I was typing) this ref desk is not really for this kind of question. I think you should post it at the Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. If I am in error I'm sure others will send you to the right place. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 19:39, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
 * " Except for pure blooded Native Americans, anyone born in America was born in a country "foreign to their heritage."" I'm not sure that's a useful distinction.  Unless they were born in Olduvai, then everyone is descended from people who had moved to somewhere "foreign", including Native Americans.  A more useful distinction I would think is whether they were born into a family that was accepted as part of the local culture.  For example, the Duke of Wellington was born in Ireland, but did not consider himself Irish, as he was part of an English-origin ruling class that saw itself as distinct from the rest of the population.  (And given that there was no such thing as Irish Citizenship at the time, I think it is reasonable to treat "English" and "Irish" as ethnicities).  Conversely, I would consider myself British, despite one side of my family being more recent immigrants (relatively) than Wellesly's were, because I've been brought up as British rather than "foreign". Iapetus (talk) 10:12, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Thank you both. Although I think I have my answer, I'll repost my question at WP:BLPN just in case. Fuddle (talk) 19:46, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Is she a US citizen? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:48, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
 * She was born in California, so unless someone presents proof she's renounced said citizenship, we can only say yes. Ian.thomson (talk) 20:52, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
 * True. But since the OP is so interested, I thought he might have some inside dope. Also, didn't this same general discussion come up just a few days ago? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:28, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
 * If it comes to an edit war, my suspicion is that it will end up on our list of WP:LAME edit wars. See the list of individuals at Lamest_edit_wars for past examples of what happens when Wikipedians lose their heads over questions of an individual's nationality. 61.69.118.118 (talk) 04:33, 5 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Ian.thomson -- Spanish Wikipedia links to a newspaper article showing that she retained U.S. citizienship as of 2008: -- AnonMoos (talk) 14:37, 5 July 2018 (UTC)


 * The OP might like to look at how it's done in articles about those of British ethnicity born in India due to the British Raj. Rudyard Kipling, Vivien Leigh and Spike Milligan spring to mind, but there are quite a few others, including many (though not all) of those listed in Category:British people of colonial India. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.2.31 (talk) 05:00, 5 July 2018 (UTC)


 * First please define "heritage". Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 07:44, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
 * You might find Third culture kid of interest. Wymspen (talk) 16:18, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Maybe "heritage" wasn't the right word.

I'm a fan, but not an expert. AFAIK she spent her childhood in Mexico and her adult life in Argentina. I don't think she's ever lived in the US. I've never heard her identify as American. So the fact that she was born in the US isn't all that important. (Sorry, I've rewritten this several times trying not to offend). Fuddle (talk) 00:38, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Everything else aside, I'd advise the use of "American-born" or "US-born" if possible, since this is neutral and indisputable. Nyttend (talk) 17:58, 7 July 2018 (UTC)