Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2018 June 13

= June 13 =

Labour force after massive development
What happens to the labour force after a country develops? For example, huge projects like zillions of new apartments and houses and roads and bridges and dams are created. Then what happens when it's all complete? What happens to the workforce? Do they get fully absorbed in the home furnishings and bridge maintenance fields and that sort of thing? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 11:34, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Typically they get absorbed in the manufacturing industry and the service industry which has necessarily grown during this economic boom. To over-simplify, these 2 sectors have grown because the workers, while they were employed as builders, were able to pay for goods and services as they were suddenly getting a regular salary above their (previously) survival-only income. --Lgriot (talk) 14:38, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
 * That's splendid news, Lgriot. Thank you so much for the speedy, clear, and concise answer. You are very kind. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 19:00, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Raiatea / Homeland of Maori people
The Wikipedia article Raiatea contains the sentence, "A traditional name for the island is Havai'i, homeland of the M%C4%81ori people." And the Wikipedia article Hawaiki contains the passage: "Anne Salmond states Havai'i is the old name for Raiatea, the homeland of the Māori. When James Cook first sighted New Zealand in 1769, he had Tupaia on board, a Raiatean navigator and linguist. Cook's arrival seemed to be a confirmation of a prophecy by Toiroa, a priest from Mahia.  At Tolaga Bay, Tupaia conversed with the priest, tohunga, associated with the school of learning located there, called Te Rawheoro.  The priest asked about the Maori homelands, 'Rangiatea' (Ra'iatea), 'Hawaiki' (Havai'i, the ancient name for Ra'iatea), and 'Tawhiti' (Tahiti)." Both cite a book called Aphrodite's Island by Anne Salmond. Outside of this, there doesn't seem to be much literature equating the Society Island of Ra'iātea with the mythical Māori homeland. So is this a fringe source, or is it even cited accurately in Wikipedia? 50.81.227.4 (talk) 16:21, 13 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Pacific peoples recounted myths of migration from a homeland named Hawaiki to many European travellers. For example:
 * Hawaiki: the whence of the Maori: being an introduction to Rarotonga history by S. Percy Smith, The Journal of the Polynesian Society Vol. 7, No. 3(27) (September, 1898), page 175. "Ra’iatea is Rangiatea, Turi’s ancient home, and the Wahaiki of many a Maori story. Havai’i is the old name of Raiatea. "
 * Peoples of the Pacific: The History of Oceania to 1870, edited By Paul D'Arcy, The Birth of New Lands, After the Creation of Havai'i (Raiatea) by Teuira Henry from the MSS. of the REV. J. M. Orsmond, written in 1817 from the lips of Aramoua and Vara, Raiatean Scholars. " Let more land grow from Hawai'i! Spica is the star, and Aeuere is the king of Havai'i, the birthplace of lands..."
 * The Journal of the Polynesian Society, Volumes 6-7, 1897, page 172. "'Tis a fish-hook of mine brought hither from Rangiatea / In those poras, that sailed here from afar.--Old Song, Ngati-Kwia, N.Z....In the above lines we notice the Maori and Rarotonga name of Raitea Island--anciently called Hawai'i--near Tahiti."
 * and these European writers equated it with various islands:
 * The Quest for Origins: Who First Discovered and Settled New Zealand the Pacific Islands? by K. R. Howe, University of Hawaii Press, 2003, page 159. "Maori oral tradition suggested that the Maori homeland was "Hawaiki," which was variously interpreted by Europeans as Samoa's Savai'i, Hawai'i or elsewhere in eastern Polynesia. "Hawaiki" is in fact the claimed immediate homeland of many people of eastern..." (sorry, I can't view the rest of the quote on the next page.)
 * (Mr Google let me see the rest) "...many people of eastern Polynesia, not just Maori. Whether it is mythical or whether it has a specific location/s, including within New Zealand itself is still debated". Alansplodge (talk) 19:30, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks Alansplodge!70.67.222.124 (talk) 19:40, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
 * But a modern source has a different interpretation:
 * Making Peoples: A History of the New Zealanders, from Polynesian Settlement to the End of the Nineteenth Century by James Belich, University of Hawaii Press, 2001, page 63. "Hawaiki may have been goal as well as source, Promised Land as well as Paradise Lost. Savai'i in Samoa, Havai'i (Raiatea) in the Society Islands, and Havai'i were all named for it. Parts, perhaps even the whole of New Zealand were also originally named Hawaiki. Tikeo claimed that new lands were usually named Hawaiki. The stories of departure from Hawaiki could be interpreted as cultural signals for migration as well as records of it." 70.67.222.124 (talk) 17:17, 13 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Aphrodite's Island, Salmond, ISBN 0520271327. Akld guy (talk) 19:17, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Soviet treatment of ww2 prisoners
I was reading that very few german war prisoners captured by the soviet union returned alive, about 1 million died out of 3 million captured according to german estimates, and some captured after battles such as the siege of staligrad, only about 5% of those POW's survived after that. The reasons for their deaths do not seem possible to me even if they were treated poorly. What is the likely hood there were soviet concentration style camps where they were killed? And is there any evidence of this?--User777123 (talk) 19:50, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Many of them starved alongside the people of the Soviet Union, who had very little food for themselves, let alone enemies who were ravaging the USSR.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:59, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
 * See Gulag: "a total of 1,053,829 [Soviet] people died in the Gulag from 1934 to 1953". They weren't going to be nicer to the Germans than to their own people. Alansplodge (talk) 20:05, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
 * See also German prisoners of war in the Soviet Union. It is widely agreed that about 3,000,000 Germans were taken prisoner by the Soviets during the war, though there are differing estimates on how many died, ranging from around 300,000 (Soviet estimate) to 1,000,000 (West German estimate). Common causes of death included disease, starvation, untreated wounds, malnutrition, physical abuse, and general lack of medical care. It was also frequently the case that Germans who surrendered were already in very poor health due to siege circumstances. Someguy1221 (talk) 20:20, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

From what I have read many people who died in gulags were executed.--User777123 (talk) 20:12, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

By the way, Stalin also treated Soviet war prisoners released from German custody extremely poorly... AnonMoos (talk) 13:44, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Beyond the general mistreatment, several of the prisoners were subjected to forced labor, which typically translates to poor living and working conditions: "in October 1949, all but 85,000 POWs had been released and repatriated. Most of those still held had been convicted as war criminals and many sentenced to long terms in forced labor camps – usually 25 years." Dimadick (talk) 16:48, 14 June 2018 (UTC)