Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2018 March 6

= March 6 =

German pastor arrested for anti-nazi activities and later released
A number of years ago while traveling I read a short autobiographical account by a German pastor of his arrest for anti-nazi activities and eventual release during the Second World War. I cannot remember the name of the author or the book and after considerable searching have not been able to find the book again. It was a relatively short book but described how he wrestled to avoid betraying his principles and his people, but not give the Nazis cause to hold him or punish him. The author was not Martin Niemöller nor Dietrich Bonhoeffer. He was held in a jail or prison and not in a concentration camp. He was regularly interrogated but not beaten or tortured. One of his fellow pastors was executed in the same prison. Can anyone help me? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31devaux (talk • contribs) 01:26, 6 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Hans Asmussen? Clarityfiend (talk) 03:02, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Heinrich Grüber was sent to Sachsenhausen and Dachau, but was released in 1943. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:19, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Is lying considered wrong in Russian culture?
It’s probably very hard to generalize, but I’m wondering if In Russian culture, lying is considered as wrong as it is other western countries where Judeo-Christian ethical systems are popular.

It seems like president Putin and his government lie about everything and Putin has that sort of smirk that seems to say he doesn’t care if you believe him or not. I’m referring to lies about whether he interfered in the USA’s election, whether he has opponents and critics murdered, whether his country systematically dopes its athletes, whether or not his military shot down a passenger plane or committed atrocities in Syria. The list of demonstrable lies goes on and on.

Do the Russian people mind this? Is lying considered a relatively small sin, compared to the sin of being weak or powerless?

I’m an American and I’m extremely aware that our President too is a colossal liar. Trump lies as much or even more than Putin. And other recent presidents have lied too, some more than others. But I think the difference is that in most American people HATE it when their leaders lie, and they criticize them for it (I wish they wouldn’t elect liars in the first place, but that’s another issue).

Trump’s approval rating is in the 30s (in part due to his dishonesty) and Putin’s is sky high—I think that even if you allowed for the fact that polls in Russian might be less rigorous than approval polls here, I think no one would dispute that Putin is more widely admired among people than Trump is among his.

So what gives? Do Russian people care that Putin lies all the time? Is it considered bad or wrong? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Captain Breakfast (talk • contribs) 16:42, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
 * See Vranyo. In short, there's two kinds of words for lies, one of which is a lie that everyone knows is a lie but plays along with anyway.  This was the article that introduced the concept to me, and discusses it in relation to Putin (though it is several years old).
 * The Moscow Times has an article on the subject as well. It's origins aren't ignoble.  The original idea is that someone who would look bad from admitting the truth can say something that probably gives the other person the truth without being shamefully open about it.  An equivalent you might see in the west: someone asks their friend how their new shirt looks.  Friend says "It's... fine?" with a concerned look that's quickly replaced by every attempt to avoid eye contact.  The person probably figures out that the shirt looks horrible but is reassured that at least their friend cares how they feel.
 * However, when it's applied to policy (especially for a national gov't), things can get royally fucked up. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:04, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
 * "vranyo" is an everyday, ordinary word, not the name of some quintessentially Russian social phenomenon "Moscow" Times (more like Langley Times) would like it to be (any more than "bull***" is the name of some quintessentially American social phenomemon.) Russians hate lying as much as everyone else. It's not "most Americans" who hate Trump for "lying," only roughly a half. The idea Orthodoxy is somehow soft on morals or "not really" Christianity is a literally 300 years old religious propaganda trope. As to those things - taking down civilian planes, killing opponents, systematically doping athletes - Russians (well, those with a favorable view of Vladimir Putin) don't think he, or Russia, did, so don't consider it lying when he denies them or chooses not to comment on them.
 * Know that anytime you're offered anthropological explanations, you're BEING HAD. Russians don't have a higher tolerance for lying, any more than Arabs' reasons to resist Anglo imperialism is the fear YT is gonna emancipate their wimmin (not kidding, that's a real trope.) The sooner you realize people are roughly the same everywhere the sooner you become a rightful citizen of the world and not some apologist for US imperialism. Good luck. (It's sad what's becoming of the RefDesks, but "he started it") 78.50.151.26 (talk) 17:57, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Most of the cases you cite as proof for lying are objectively disputable or, stronger even, without any clear evidence no matter excessive investigations. Even the President of the United States keeps calling some of these cases a "Witch hunt". It does not suffice anymore today to judge just from alleged motives and clues, which is exactly how the witches where prosecuted obviously wrong in the medieval, basically because everyone believed in "evil magic" and the church/pope was always right. --Kharon (talk) 18:20, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Notice I pointed out a western equivalent and didn't actually specify which nations' politics are messed up by it (because it's bad for any nation). Notice I said there's two kinds of words for lying.  The other kind does describe what we'd just call "lying" (or even "bullshit") with no qualifiers.  Vranyo is an everyday word, but it is one that carries contexts that "lying" does not.  Notice I said nothing about Orthodoxy.  Try actually reading posts before responding to them, instead of just making assumptions based on nationality. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:25, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
 * ¡Hola. The OP talked about Orthodoxy. I was replying to everyone. Sorry if I was nasty (I got carried away a bit in my 2nd paragraph.) I don't hate the West or anything. The MT just wants project to a bad image of Russians and they're not even being original. Solzhenitsyn already said, "Let's not live by lies." Russians are their own worst (=best) critics, and always have been, they (I'm saying they, as I'm not ethnically Russian, just russophone) don't need the airplane nonsense. Speaking of journos, just like Americans know where they were on 9/11, some of my earliest childhood memories is when I learned about Dmitry Kholodov and Listyev. 78.50.151.112 (talk) 14:02, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
 * If it helps, on the RuNet, I always defend the West against unfair attacks by Russian patriotards and obscurantists, too. 78.50.151.112 (talk) 14:15, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

I know almost nothing about Russian culture, but "vranyo" sounds more benign than the Arab phenomenon of lies to protect an important person's sense of dignity -- the classic example of which is Nasser and King Hussein of Jordan discussing how they'll fabricate a hoax that U.S. and British planes (not Israeli) destroyed the Egyptian and Jordanian air forces in 1967. These dignity-protecting lies can lack basic plausibility, but they aren't offered with a wink or a smirk, and any attempts to dispute them can trigger an enraged and furious response. The final breakdown between W. Bush and Arafat in 2002 happened when Bush felt personally betrayed and offended by Arafat's dignity-protecting lies that he knew nothing about the Karine A ("Arafat had lied to me. I never trusted him again.  In fact, I never spoke to him again." -- Decision Points by George W. Bush)... AnonMoos (talk)`

We do not answer requests for opinion or debate.--WaltCip (talk) 12:16, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Imprisonment for public protection...
... was abolished in 2012, but what is England's and Wales' today's treatment with dangerous convicts then? Has there been established any corresponding, appropriate substitute to protect the public from such criminals constituting a menace to it?--Converto (talk) 16:48, 6 March 2018 (UTC)


 * As is mentioned in the article, there is already the option for life imprisonment, including the contentious whole life order. Part of what made the IPP law so dangerous was that it acted as a kind of backdoor way of giving someone what amounted to a life sentence despite them not being found guilty of a commensurate crime (if they had, they'd have been give life imprisonment instead). The quote from Juliet Lyons at the bottom of this sums up the problems nicely. Matt Deres (talk) 20:25, 6 March 2018 (UTC)