Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2018 May 14

= May 14 =

Cheapest way to rest in peace


In America, there are two main ways to handle dead bodies - burial or cremation. And, given the costs, both seem to be options for the upper and middle classes. If you are poor but able enough to dig a hole for a deceased family member, then can you just dig your own hole and bury the dead body in it? Or are there laws against digging a grave for a dead family member or your future dead self? SSS (talk) 19:53, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
 * There are laws regulating Disposal of human corpses in America and elsewhere. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:28, 13 May 2018 (UTC)


 * You can also donate your body to a medical school. -Arch dude (talk) 01:51, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
 * If they accept it. --76.69.47.55 (talk) 06:13, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Pauper's funerals still exist, in practice as well as by that name. Like the recent question on illegitimacy, the term seems archaic, but in fact they still have precise meanings that the authorities deploy from time to time. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 13:58, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * In the UK it is certainly legal to bury a body on your own property - it is uncommon, but there are cases of people who bury their parents in the garden of the family home. There is a requirement that the grave be marked in some way, and if the property is later sold potential purchasers must be informed of the burial. In practice, it has made selling a property much more difficult. Wymspen (talk) 14:27, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * As an example (admittedly a highly non-typical one), Diana, Princess of Wales was buried on an island in the grounds of her family home. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 17:14, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Is it allowed to transplant (to a cemetery plot) all contents in a bed-sized prism down to the water table (while dropping as few ex-body atoms as practical), remove evidence that it was once a grave (i.e. enlarge the hole to a pond-shaped koi pond) and sell without telling? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:59, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * It would depend on the laws wherever you are. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:37, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

John R. Bolton
I was watching this CNN interview [] of John R. Bolton and noticed that the anchor kept referring to Mr. Bolton as "Ambassador Bolton".

1. Which is considered the "higher" position, the United States Ambassador to the United Nations or the National Security Advisor (United States)?

2. Is there an equivalent honorific to "Ambassador Bolton" for the position of National Security Advisor (United States)? Would "Advisor Bolton" be acceptable? Constantly referring to him as "National Security Advisor Bolton" would be quite the mouthful and I guess that's why it's not being done. Mũeller (talk) 03:07, 14 May 2018 (UTC)


 * According to United States order of precedence, Ambassador to the UN is at no. 15 (sub 19), while National Security Advisor is down at 31. Rojomoke (talk) 04:07, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The Ambassador to the UN requires Senate approval while the National Security Advisor is just selected by the President. In my opinion, the ambassador job has more formal prestige, while the NSA job has more actual power, depending on the individual, with Henry Kissinger being the prototype of a powerful person in that role. I have never heard an honorific used for the National Security Advisor. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  04:19, 14 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I've read something by Poul Anderson, i think, in which there's a dictator with the title Permanent Advisor to the President. He probably has a prefix. —Tamfang (talk) 07:55, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Such courtesy titles are often a matter of personal preference and custom (Bolton, btw, was a recess appointment and was not confirmed by the Senate). William H. Seward always preferred to be called Governor Seward even when he had served as senator and Secretary of State because only as governor had he been elected by the people (this was pre-17th Amendment). For a half century after the US Civil War, people went around being called "Major" or "Captain", etc. for their wartime ranks.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:15, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Arms of Earl Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, and arms of Viscount Tenby
According to Wikipedia, the arms of Earl Lloyd-George of Dwyfor and those of Viscount Tenby are the same. Both are referenced to "Cracroft's Peerage", here for Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, and here for Tenby. Now, two different people cannot bear the same, undifferenced, arms. I am led to conclude that we, and Cracroft, are wrong. I have seen commemorative material for David Lloyd George which has the arms that we have, but I have never seen anything for Tenby. So, what I am looking for is a reliable source for both sets of arms. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 22:51, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Can they be differenced by supporters? The two sets of arms appear to have different supporters, according to Cracroft's.  -- Jayron 32 12:19, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't think so, the usual way of differencing is by some sort of label on the shield (a crescent with points upwards for a second son, as Gwilym Lloyd George was). Cracroft's doesn't give any sources. DuncanHill (talk) 12:26, 15 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Here is the website of the College of Arms, which is the Arms authority for England and Wales. If you can't find information directly on the website, they have contact information; maybe you can contact someone directly there who can help you research the answer to your question.  -- Jayron 32 12:34, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks, perhaps I should have said that I already looked there. I know some people assume I don't make any effort whatsoever before coming here, but in fact, for future reference, I always do. I wouldn't be able to afford their fees anyway. DuncanHill (talk) 12:41, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I've never made any assumptions one way or the other, as far as I am aware. I just direct people to possible sources of information.  -- Jayron 32 12:56, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I find myself, much to my surprise, having to say that the supporters apparently are enough to difference a coat of arms. Being in a good library today I took a look at their copy of Debrett's Peerage & Baronetage, which gives the arms of both Earl Lloyd-George and Viscount Tenby precisely as Cracroft's Peerage gives them.  I was looking at the 2015 edition, so Debrett have had ample opportunity over the last six decades to correct any mistakes.  Surely this is as decisive an authority as you're going to get, short of putting the Garter King of Arms on oath.  Conclusion: neither we nor Cracroft are wrong, and if you perhaps think the College of Arms was wrong to grant the Tenby arms in the first place then, well, I doubt if you'd win that argument with them.  But how odd it all is! --Antiquary (talk) 16:45, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks, it does seem very strange indeed. Without the actual grants of arms I suppose we shall have to take Debrett's word for it. DuncanHill (talk) 20:39, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Burke's gives the blazons. The arms & crests are indeed identical, the supporters are the difference:

Tenby:

Arms: Az. over water barry wavy in base a bridge of one arch ppr., on a chief arg. a portcullis sa. between two daffodils stalked and leaved, also ppr. Crest: A demi-dragon gu., holding between the claws a portcullis sa. Supporters: Dexter, a dragon gu.; sinister, a lion or; each gorged with a collar compony arg. and vert, pendant from the dexter an escutcheon gu. charged with a fort between two towers also arg. Motto: Y gwir yn erbyn y byd (‘The truth against the world’). Creation: V. (UK) 12 Feb 1957.

Lloyd George:

Arms: Az. over water barry wavy, in base a bridge of one arch ppr., on a chief arg. a portcullis sa. between two daffodils stalked and leaved, also ppr. Crest: A demi-dragon gu., holding between the claws a portcullis sa. Supporters: Dexter, a dragon or; sinister, an eagle, wings addorsed or, each gorged with a collar vert. Motto: Y gwir yn erbyn y byd (‘The truth against the world’). Creation: E. and V. (UK) 12 Feb 1945.

Given that Tenby was Lloyd George's son, it seems fair enough. - Nunh-huh 23:01, 20 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Second son. One would expect him either to bear his father's arms differenced with a crescent, or for him to have had a new grant of arms to go with the viscountcy. DuncanHill (talk) 23:59, 20 May 2018 (UTC)