Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2018 May 15

= May 15 =

What was name of novel about an Army computer programmer whose program has an error?
The novel was published 1970s or 1980s. It was about an army officer who developed a computer program to direct soldiers during war games. In the end, a mistake in the program causes some soldiers to get injured by live ammunition.


 * NB: also asked on the Entertainment Desk, which is probably the more appropriate forum. OP, please don't put queries on more than one desk, it causes unnecessary duplication and confusion for the volunteer editors. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.221.82.140 (talk) 10:06, 15 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I've redirected the other one to be answered here&mdash;literature is under Humanities. Now, does anyone know this novel? --76.69.47.55 (talk) 23:28, 15 May 2018 (UTC)


 * The book Colossus (novel) comes to mind but it doesn't fit all of your specifications. Maybe it will help spark other editors memories. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 02:00, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

It's not Colossus, but thanks anyway for responding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:2FC0:F:1E6:A4D0:891B:E602 (talk) 21:55, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Was it by any chance Catch-22? It's about four and a half decades since I read it, and I have a vague recollection that the plot matches your question. The article says that computers are mentioned. Akld guy (talk) 21:13, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Avesta Harun
I tried to graze for English-language sources on Kurdish fighter Avesta Harun, but for some reason found none, only Italian and some Polish-language, all linked to that Rovelli's book. Books don't show anything either. Seemingly she's not Avesta Xebur. Brandmeistertalk  07:28, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I believe she's identical with the Avesta (no surname given) interviewed in an article called "Fighting the Islamic State". I say that on the basis that her date and place of death, given in the postscript to that article, are the same as Avesta Harun's as given on her Italian Wikipedia page. --Antiquary (talk) 09:31, 15 May 2018 (UTC)  And now I come to look, that interview is listed in the bibliography of the Italian WP article. --Antiquary (talk) 09:41, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Italian wiki suggests her real name is Filiz Şaybak. Looks like Avesta Harun is her her nom de guerre, but the English-language coverage is still negligible. Brandmeistertalk  13:47, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Teo Savory
While updating the WP biography on British writer Gerald Savory, I learned that his first wife was an Elizabeth Dunbar who used the nickname "Teo". I suspect she may be the same person as the American author and publisher Teo Savory (1907-1989), who does not currently have a WP bio, but might be notable enough to warrant one. How might I go about confirming they are one and the same? I can't find any secondary sources to back this up, just primary (genealogical) sources which indicate that Dunbar was the surname of Teo Savory's parents.--Muzilon (talk) 13:19, 15 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry you aren't getting an answer. Probably many editors have tried, like I did, to find you some secondary sources and turned up blank. I can only think of one further approach - if you can figure out which newspaper might have published her obituary, you might ask at WP:RX to see if anyone there has access to the newspaper's archives and could find the obituary for you. 70.67.222.124 (talk) 14:51, 17 May 2018 (UTC)


 * She later married the poet Alan Brilliant and died in Greensboro, North Carolina on 14 November 1989, but I haven't been able to locate any obituaries. --Muzilon (talk) 16:47, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
 * UPDATE: at your suggestion I searched the online archive of the Greensboro News & Record, and it seems they did publish a death notice for Teo Brilliant on 15 November 1989. The full text is paywalled though.--Muzilon (talk) 17:37, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
 * That's good news! And that's what WP:RX is for - if you need the source for a wikipedia article, you can request the full text and someone there might be able to send it to you in wikipedia email.70.67.222.124 (talk) 19:56, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Kensington Palace
The Kensington Palace article says "During World War I, George V allowed a number of rooms in the palace to be used by those working for Irish POWs and Irish soldiers at the front, and decreed that its royal inhabitants adhere to the same rations as everyone else." What would the folks do who were "working for Irish POWs and Irish soldiers?" Were there others whose efforts were limited to non-Irish prisoners and soldiers from particular regions? Like "Donate to send food parcels to Welsh POWs and soldiers?" or Yorkshire soldiers? It just sounds odd and exclusionary. Edison (talk) 14:06, 15 May 2018 (UTC)


 * There's an article here about voluntary schemes to support troops in the First World War. They would supply comforts - clothing, tobacco or cigarettes, food, books, etc - to soldiers and POWs. Many schemes would have a local element (it's always easier to get people to donate to "our local lads"). Margaret Lloyd George for example set up the Welsh Troops Comforts Fund while at 11 Downing Street. DuncanHill (talk) 14:23, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * And the Irish Women's Association are mentioned here in Hansard, and the grant by Their Majesties of a suite of rooms in Kensington Palace. DuncanHill (talk) 14:33, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * In connexion with this, and particularly with regard to localism in such funds, it may be helpful to look at the table in our article Childers Reforms, which shews the Regimental Districts of the various regiments of the British Army. Each regiment would recruit from a particular area, often a county or a group of counties. DuncanHill (talk) 15:06, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * There's rather a nice collection of newspaper clippings from one town here with examples of the sorts of things sent out, and the ways in which people raised funds. DuncanHill (talk) 15:12, 15 May 2018 (UTC)


 * "Members of the titled and upper ranks of Irish society formed the non-political and non-sectarian Irish Women's Association in London in 1915 for the purpose of providing food and comforts for prisoners of war belonging to Irish regiments". Shame and the Anti-Feminist Backlash: Britain, Ireland and Australia, 1890-1920 by Sharon Crozier-De Rosa.  Alansplodge (talk) 10:13, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * And according to 1914-1918: How charities helped to win WW1, "Nearly 18,000 charities were established [in the UK] during the four years of the war". It seems likely that many of these had a local focus, like the businessman who opened a convalescent home in Kent for people from Bermondsey (the area was heavily bombed). Not really relevant but sounding rather improbable to modern ears, "the Smokes for Wounded Soldiers And Sailors Society – known popularly as the SSS – distributed more than a billion cigarettes to wounded men". Alansplodge (talk) 21:45, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * There's a nice article about Smokes for Tommmies on the Mary Evans blog here. DuncanHill (talk) 22:05, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Novels about celibate men
What are the best, most well known stories of celibate men? Women may tempt them, but they don't really fall for it. SSS (talk) 15:03, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The Sun Also Rises main protagonist, Jake Barnes, is celibate, of a sort. -- Jayron 32 15:19, 15 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Asexuality mentions Sherlock Holmes. TV Tropes also lists several novels with male asexual protagonists in the "Literature" section. But probably closest to what you are looking for is the TV Tropes celibacy page, which mentions Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, A Wizard of Earthsea, Les Miserables and more. 70.67.222.124 (talk) 15:49, 15 May 2018 (UTC)


 * My first thought was Jesus - some very well known stories, and a wide belief in his celibacy. Or other religious men who are supposed to abstain from pleasures of the flesh. One of Australia's best sellers was The Thorn Birds; the priest is mightily tempted; does one lapse invalidate a lifetime vow? There are more homosocial stories than I can shake a stick at. Wind in the Willows bears re-reading. And what of stories about men tempted by other men - do they count? Carbon Caryatid (talk) 22:14, 15 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I was thinking of stories that had a deeply religious protagonist, and the protagonist was vegetarian, celibate, and kind. SSS (talk) 03:04, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Two brothers of Thomas Aquinas tried to dissuade him from becoming a Dominican munk by hiring a prostitute to seduce him. According to legend, Thomas drove her away wielding a fire iron. That night two angels appeared to him as he slept and strengthened his determination to remain celibate. DroneB (talk) 08:42, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * See Robinson Crusoe, who's deeply religious (after a while), celibate, and kind, although I can't remember if he eats his goats or simply drinks their milk. But he's not tempted by women, there being none on his island.  Nyttend (talk) 02:13, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Defoe is silent on whether Crusoe was tempted by goats. Alansplodge (talk) 17:27, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

"My first thought was Jesus - some very well known stories, and a wide belief in his celibacy." He is not particularlty celibate in novels. In The Last Temptation of Christ (1955) and the film adaptation, Jesus first marries Mary Magdalene (who dies in childbirth), then enters a polygamous marriage Mary of Bethany and Martha, and has many children by both of them. I also collect various novels (Greek, German, French, British, etc.) where Jesus has wives and mistresses. He is one of my favourite romance characters. (Conversely Paul the Apostle is mostly depicted as a misogynist and lunatic, and I have a few novels where Saint Peter is a sadist and torturer. These two are often depicted as villains, not heroes. )

The first thing that comes to mind when I think of celibate novel characters is Hercule Poirot. Despite having some romantic interest in Vera Rosakoff, Poirot never pursuits a love life, never marries, and never has a family. He commits suicide in old age, and the only person who mourns for him is his former sidekick Arthur Hastings.

Another celibate character is Doc Savage. Despite being courted by women, Savage explains in his very first novel: "He had long ago made up his mind that women were to play no part in his career".

A somewhat darker example is Solomon Kane. He is a Puritan and celibate for religious reasons. "Solomon Kane's Homecoming" implies that he left a love interest (Bess) behind when he started adventuring. The poem features an old and tired Kane trying to return to his hometown and to reconnect with Bess. He learns that Bess died seven years ago, that nobody really remembers him, and that retirement is not an option for him. The implied "reward" for a lifetime of piousness and heroism is that Kane will die alone and unmourned.

Another example by Robert E. Howard is Kull of Atlantis. The usurper king of Valusia is more interested in philosophy than sex. "One notable difference between Kull and Conan is their respective attitudes to women. While Conan is a notable womanizer, finding a new love interest in nearly each of his stories, Kull is repeatedly mentioned as uninterested in having any such attachment. While highly chivalrous and on several occasions helping pairs of star-crossed lovers reach a happy consummation, he is never mentioned as having himself any relationship with a woman. Nor is Kull showing any interest in marrying and founding a dynasty, as Conan does in The Hour of the Dragon, and none of Kull's wise advisors ever mentions this issue."

For more on the Celibate Hero trope see: TV Tropes. Dimadick (talk) 09:01, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

This is stretching it somewhat, but WHAAOE (usually): Eunuchs in popular culture. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 19:10, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Confusion about Robert the Bruce (Robert de Brus) ancestor
My apologies if this should go on the talk page, I'm not sure if those are regularly checked or not. The article on [| Robert IV de Brus] is a bit confusing - it says he married Isobel of Huntington in about 1912 but they had issue in 1215. (Insert joke about royalty not keeping their pants on) Isobe's says the same thing but that she married before, so was that son from the first marriage? Or is their son's birth date wrong? Or did it just happen out of wedlock - which I would think would be referenced with some comment about the child then being adopted.108.192.86.137 (talk) 18:35, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * According to Robert de Brus, 4th Lord of Annandale, those dates do appear in conflict. It's best to check the sources.  If you have access to the Dictionary of National Biography, it appears that all of the principals are covered in there.  Perhaps that could resolve the problem.  I've done some searches through Google books, which are being confounded by the fact that 1) there are lots of de Brus/Bruce family members, and they are all named Robert 2) There is not a consistent method of numbering them; what is called Robert IV in one source is called Robert V in another 3) Several married Isobel's 4) There are many different spellings (de Brus, de Bruce, The Bruce, Isobel, Isabelle, Isabella, etc) and 5) anything I can find which is clearly this Robert and this Isobel doesn't have a hard date.  Sorry not to be of more help.  The problem with some of this stuff is that we're talking about what were fairly minor nobles at the time, and record keeping was probably spotty at best.  Of course, a later Robert Bruce becomes A Big Deal, and so we have lots recorded about his life, but as you go back, the records of what happened to a great-grand-daughter of an early 12th century King of Alba and a rather unimportant landowner in said kingdom might be hard to reconstruct.  I'm hopeful someone else's Google-fu is better than mine, but I'm not finding anything to resolve the issue. -- Jayron 32 18:59, 15 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I added a link to the proper DNB article. We have the whole (old) DNB at Wikisource. I changed the death date to the one in the DNB, since the existing date was source to an unidentified self-published work. Note the subject's name is Robert V de Brus, but he is the 4th lord Annandale, which is part of the numbering confusion. It's still a bit if a confused mess. There is still another ref to the DNB that does not list a specific article: such refs are almost useless, since there are about 30,000 articles in the (old) DNB and more than 50,000 in the newer (copyrighted) DNB. -Arch dude (talk) 20:16, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that does help at least. It reminds me of some ancestry research I did once which got way too confusing in the 1600s back in Germany because there was a time every Tom, Dick, and Harry seemed to be baptized "John" before their actual first name. (Which led me to look up a famous quote like that which I'll link in case it makes others wonder.)108.192.86.137 (talk) 21:06, 15 May 2018 (UTC)


 * According to The Brus Family in England and Scotland, 1100-1295 by Ruth Margaret Blakely (Boydell, 2005), pages 67-75 of chapter 4 in particular, basically no one is quite sure. Robert IV's father died in 1212, and Robert may or may not have been married to Isabel by then. Isabel's father died in 1219, but he was at the wedding, so they got married sometime before that. It's not even really clear when Robert IV died or when Robert V was born, except that Robert V was a minor when Robert IV died, and Robert V was no longer a minor in 1242. This is pretty standard stuff for the 13th century, honestly. If the person in question isn't a king, ad even sometimes for kings too, we'll probably never know specific birth/marriage/death dates. We just to have infer a lot of information from circumstantial evidence in the available sources. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:25, 16 May 2018 (UTC)