Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2018 May 17

= May 17 =

Nettle liquid manure
What is nettle liquid manure, and why would France prohibit it? I'd never heard of it before running across the relevant portion of Prohibitionism. Judging by, it's just composted nettles, but it doesn't seem reasonable to prohibit the composting of a native plant (unless they tried some sort of War on Drugs on them?), so I'm wondering if this is a translation error or if the same term has two separate meanings. Nyttend (talk) 02:17, 17 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I would have guessed that "manure" was a translation error for "fertilizer" if there hadn't been an article linked using the term. But no.


 * The Prohibitionism article links to this French government page where the prohibition was repealed. It identifies the substance, or rather family of substances, in question as "purins d'orties".  The interwiki link to the French Wikipedia from Urtica, i.e. nettles, tells you that that's what orties are.  As to the other word, I found it in a 1943 French-English dictionary that I have (Bellows' French Dictionary) with the translation of "liquid manure".  It then occurred to me to look up purin in the French Wikipedia, and sure enough, it the word's primary meaning is un déchet liquide produit par les élevages d'animaux domestiques&mdash;liquid waste from farm animals.  Hence, liquid manure.


 * But "purin d'orties" has its own section in the article, where it is explained that a better name for the stuff would be extrait fermenté d'orties, i.e. fermented nettle extract.


 * As to the reason for the prohibition, both that section and the French law mention it: the stuff was considered a produit phytopharmaceutique or "phytopharmaceutical product". In English that means a drug derived from plants, but the French phrase also has an article in the French Wikipedia, which specifically refers to it as a form of pesticide.  And that's something that governments would want to regulate. --76.69.47.55 (talk) 06:32, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
 * "Manure" can mean "fertilizer". See green manure.  Also there's the famous quote from Thomas Jefferson:  The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.  It is its natural manure. --Trovatore (talk) 07:52, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Based on the the rest of the French Wikipedia article, as well as the article on stinging nettles, it seems that the 2006 law was against unregulated pesticides/fertilizers, and it only accidentally prohibited nettle manure, based on the way it's made and not on the actual composition. That law was amended almost immediately, and then the prohibition on nettle manure was removed entirely in 2011. Adam Bishop (talk) 10:18, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

1983~1990 Palau National Geographic article question
Folks, I'm sorry, I live in Japan and have no access to an English-language lending library. In the 1980s, National Geographic Magazine published an article on the then-new nation of Palau including (my paraphrase) "Palau is the most over-governed place on the planet, with 16 states and both a tribal chiefdom and elected legislature in each municipality, for 20,000 people. Someone will walk into a bar in Koror, the national capital, and yell "Hey governor!" Everyone gets the joke so half the patrons stand up." Can anyone help me with chapter and verse?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 04:04, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, my library's holdings begin in 1995, so I can't help with getting the source. Can you provide further information?  For example, do you remember anything about the cover of the issue (e.g. what was on it), to help someone to find it quickly?  Do you have any sense of the title of this article?  Any clue about what the other articles talked about?  Time of year?  I know you won't know most of these; I'm just trying to find anything that would make it easier to get this answer.  Nyttend (talk) 04:27, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for getting back to me on this one. In 1990, NG issued a bound, two volume index of all articles since founding in 1888 (since online, but a members-only service). Most US libraries will have this index. What I do know is there were only two articles on Palau in that period. I'm going to say it was after September 1984, my first stop in Hawaii and thus my original interest, and no later than April 1991.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 06:27, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
 * It is on page 493 of the October 1986 issue. The citation is:
 * Patterson, Carolyn Bennett, et al. "At the Birth of Nations: In the Far Pacific." National Geographic Magazine, Oct. 1986. National Geographic Virtual Library, Accessed 17 May 2018.
 * Unfortunately, I can't give you a link because it is password protected. If you can get to a library with a subscription to the National Geographic Virtual Library though, you can read for yourself.
 * Lemme know if you need the exact quote. 70.67.222.124 (talk) 15:08, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
 * A friend with access sent me a copy of the page. I'll retype the passage:


 * The westernmost among the emerging nations of the Pacific, the Republic of Palau (or Belau), population more than 15,000, is divided into 16 separate states, each with its own governor, lieutenant governor, and legislature. Most state populations are very small, and one wonders if anyone has time for anything but government, American style and democratic though it may be.


 * An example is Peleliu, the tragic island where more than 13,000 Americans and Japanese died during less than three months of fighting, often hand to hand, in the autumn of 1944. Pat and I went to Peleliu from Koror, the republic's capital, by speedboat, a wave-tossing, rear-slapping 45 minutes, and arrived to discover it was election day, with five candidates running for governor.  Although Peleliu claims a population of 2,000 people, only 400 actually live there.  More registered voters live in Koror than on their home island, and 800 send votes from Guam.  The situation is similar in Palau's other states.


 * A current joke puts a laugh in the truth. A man walks into a bar in Koror and calls out, "Hey, Governor!"  And half the men in the place stand up.


 * But that's only the state story. The national government is headed by President Lazarus Salii, followed by a vice president, a cabinet responsible for five ministries, a judiciary, and a legislature with a 16-member house and a 14-member senate.


 * The there's the hereditary leadership. Each village has ten chiefs, ranked in importance.  And, dividing the island group, there are two paramount chiefs.  Never, I thought, have so few been governed by so many.


 * (See also: Never was so much owed by so many to so few.)
 * --76.69.47.55 (talk) 22:10, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Fantastic, thank you so much, everyone! Also thanks for the retype! My paraphrase was not bad for a 30-year-old memory!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 09:28, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Indian police shields
Just came across these police shields. The capture says they are Indian militarized forces pursuing Muslim protesters in Kashmir. How on earth they use such wicker-like stuff for shields? Brandmeistertalk  09:18, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
 * That's actually quite common for riot police, not only in India, but also here in Europe. These shields are lightweight, somewhat flexible and almost indestructible. Very effective when people throw stones or bottles. Jahoe (talk) 09:50, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I personally doubt it somewhat, also given their gaps and apparently flammable nature. Obviously there are other lightweight and durable uniform materials around. Brandmeistertalk  10:04, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, these ones are quite open. Here's an image from Amsterdam, 1966. They are smaller, but more tightly woven. I've seen many news photos like this, from many countries. Jahoe (talk) 10:45, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Or see our article shield, it explicitly mentions woven reeds or wicker. Jahoe (talk) 11:05, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
 * They are not that flammable. And a Molotov-cocktail probably won't shatter on the shield, because the shield is lightweight and flexible. A bottle will just bounce off. Also, don't underestimate the value of locally sourced, cheap, plentiful. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:43, 22 May 2018 (UTC)


 * They're still used for training in the West - it's harder to injure someone with one, compared to polycarbonate. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:08, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
 * It rather depends on the perceived threat; wicker is suitable for defence against stones, sticks, bottles and bricks, or for containing a crowd. If Indian people aren't in the habit of throwing petrol bombs or pyrotechnics at their police officers, then why buy a more expensive and heavier replacement? Alansplodge (talk) 17:21, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Facing a crowd with shinai or lathi, I'd rather have a circular wicker shield than a heavy rectangular polycarbonate shield (and the US shields are ridiculous). Many European police shields are just too heavy, which encourages testudo tactics for a small crowd with weapons like petrol bombs, rather than a large and mobile crowd with sticks and rocks. The small circular polycarbonate shields are probably the best overall.
 * Sword and buckler has some relevance too. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:06, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
 * As Ogden Nash would say, "Poly is jolly, but wicker is quicker." Clarityfiend (talk) 02:13, 21 May 2018 (UTC)